big problems, quick help needed

kcormier · May 30, 2009

Ok, so from the beginning. I have a 35 gallon tank that formerly had just a male betta in it. My gf wanted more fish so I told her she was in charge.

According the the LFS we were sold:
1 male & 1 female micky mouse swordtail
1 male & 1 female red swordtail
2 dalmation mollies (couldn't tell sexes apart)

the micky mouse swordtails were definitely correct, though they had the sexes backwards (they told me the male was female and vice versa)

the red swordtails I'm pretty sure are actually plattys. I'm
not sure how to tell the sexes apart.

the dalmation mollies I have no idea.

Now, to the problems. The female mickey mouse's tail was nicked up the following morning and appeared to be somewhat white at the base. I began treating for fin & tail rot, figuring the tank it came from must have been infected. The next morning (this morning) I noticed that the fin was entirely gone, that my betta is hiding and his tail is all ragged now (it was gorgeous 2 days ago before the new fish), and that the mollies are hiding as well.

The male micky mouse and the two plattys look good and seem to rule the tank. I've also seen one of the plattys nip at my betta at least once. It is huge and I'm wondering if it might be a pregnant female?

My main questions are, do you think one of them is terrorizing my tank and if so, who? Do you think it's just because of a pregnancy or something and that the aggression will subside or do I need to return someone to the LFS? What should I do about the sick female micky mouse swordtail? Do you think she could come back from that much injury or do you think euthanasia would be the most humane thing? I have a small 2.5 gallon tank that i can isolate a fish in. Add in aeration & a small filter powered by the aerator. Do you think I should separate the betta as well? I really want the betta in my community tank. Please help. The chemicals were ok yesterday. Will test again as soon as I can. Parents are really riding me today and I barely got time to post this. Should be back with numbers within the hour. The only thing off is the PH which is around 8 but the LFS said these fish would be ok at a high ph. could this be causing the aggression?

-Kevin

Kissyboots · May 30, 2009

It's probably agression from the male livebearers that is causing the problem. What I would do in your situation is move the betta to the 2.5g (it can live in there better than a livebearer) so he's out of the line of fire. Then fix your male to female ration so it's at least 1 male to 3-4 females. I personally would get rid of the mollies; they can become agressive and huge! If you get three or four more of the other species (swortails, platies, whatever) then I think that should solve the agression problem.

kcormier · May 30, 2009

i was still hoping for some advice on the sick one. He's been separated in a small 2.5 gallon tank w/ a filter & aerator. He doesn't look very good though. He's floating there nose down and ends up spinning and usually settling floating nose down kinda upside down. I'm thinking euthanasia but idk how. My parents have told me to flush him but that doesn't sound right to me. It sounds too cruel. no flushing unless they're already dead!

-Kevin

MissFishy · May 31, 2009

Good thinking kcormier, flushing is NOT euthanasia. If it comes to that, take a look at the link in my signature "My Fish is Sick", I have some fish euthanasia methods listed at the bottom.

I agree with Kissy, once this fish dies or is cured, the betta needs to be moved to the 2.5g. Make absolutely sure you know what cycling a tank is though too, both of your tanks will need to be cycled to keep any fish in them (again, look at the website). By keeping your sick fish in this 2.5, you've probably already done a lot of damage. Is it heated? Moving a sick fish usually really stresses them out. If the fins are missing, it has likely been picked on by its tankmates. If it is spinning, etc. It could be ammonia poisoning, or just a sign that it won't recover. Again, take a look at the website.

kcormier · May 31, 2009

the ammonia & nitrites are both below .25 in both tanks. My kit goes right from 0 to .25 and it's def not .25. nitrates are below 5 in each tank.

I keep the filter for my sick tank in my main tank when not in use. That way the bacteria cultures are already fully developed and ready when needed in the sick tank.

My sick tank is filtered, aerated, and soon to be heated. I was doing water changes so frequently I didn't think it mattered. After checking the temps I apparently was wrong. I was doing daily 1/3 water changes. What I'd do is remove about 1/3 of the water from the small 2.5 gallon tank and dump it. I'd then siphon water from the main tank to the sick tank so it was the water the sick fish was used to (after checking nitrates, nitrites, & ammonia). temp was at about 80. I'd then refill the main tank w/ fresh prepared water that sat at least overnight & was treated.

I list that because i'm still asking for advice even though I'm too late. I just lost little rupert (the betta) as well. He started seizing and then stopped moving and was breathing really slowly. When he finally stopped I waited to count a full 60 seconds with no gill movement.

Is this the best way to tell he's definitely passed or is there something else I should do to check? Once I realised the sick tank was so cold I again netted the betta (i know, it's bad) and put him back in the community tank, but such that he was still in the net & the net was hanging open into the tank. Unfortunately he was already too far gone I think.

He was a cute fish too. Very comfortable with nets, hands, and his favorite, the turkey baster. Ohh the live worms that would come from the baster! lol. At least I can say I took him in on the verge of death and gave him at least 1 good year of life. Counts for something, right?

Any advice to keep the rest of my little buggers healthy would be appreciated. I've been treating for fin rot (came on one of the new fish). But that fish & now the betta are both dead. One is looking like she's going to drop some fry any day now. I'm thinking it would probably be best to stop the fin rot treatment now as none of the other fish are showing any symptoms and the sick fish have been quarantined nearly 24 hours with treatment in the healthy tank being continued over that time. Any opinions? Will fin rot stick around & be dangerous enough to be worth continuing treatment with no host?

-Kevin

MissFishy · May 31, 2009

Fin rot is a sign that you have poor water conditions. It will usually "fix" itself if you keep your water conditions good.

Bettas shouldn't be "netted", it scrapes their delicate skin and can cause infection. Bettas should always be scooped by hand or cup for the future.

kcormier · Jun 5, 2009

thank you for the info. I'll be sure to keep that in mind. I don't know what's up with my tank!

. I've since lost another molly & the second (male) swordtail. Fed them maybe 2 hours ago and he ate hardily. Just found him dead on the bottom of the tank!

The ph is right for these fish. It's sitting just under 8 and i'm slowly dropping it. Amonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates are fine. The tank is WELL aerated. I have 2 aeration strips as well as the filter (made for a larger tank). I feed them so that all the food is eaten within the first few minutes I put it in.

At one point they've all had frozen bloodworms. Is it possible my package of bloodworms is contaminated & killing all my fish? There have been no physical abnormalities on the last 2 (like fin rot). The molly stopped eating and took a little time before it passed. This swordtail just went very quickly. I know you guys won't have a magic answer but I am not a cruel person and it pains me to know that these fish under my care are doing so poorly. Is there anything I can be doing differently? Is it possible that the tank is just contaminated?

I hope someone has an answer because I'm sick of dredging dead fish.

Thanks to anyone who has advice or something to check out!

And thanks to all who have helped so far!

I had some live plants in the tank but the floating plants don't seem to do very well at all. I think it's for lack of light. I've sinced pulled them out but there may be some plant matter still in the tank in the gravel or something. I have 2 other live plants that are doing well. They each got a little crappy after the move. One (a java fern i think) got a big brown spot on one of it's leaves but it is now sprouting new leaves and actually just yesterday I noticed it's tallest shoot just passed the tallest leave when I bought it!

At least something is growing in my tank!

-Kevin

-Kevin

OrangeCones · Jun 5, 2009

kcormier said:

What are you doing to slowly drop your pH (and why)?

What are your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings now?

1077 · Jun 6, 2009

I agree with previous post. Your water's pH is suitable for livebearers who prefer hard slightly alkaline water, no need to mess with the pH.
Mollies would be ok in temp of 80 degrees but swordtails and platy's in my view would prefer cooler water of 74 to 77 degrees.

Violet · Jun 6, 2009

When you move the water from the main tank into the isolation tank, I'm wondering if there is a risk that the water still has some of the illness in it (for lack of a better phrase). If the main tank hasn't been treated, or hasn't finished being treated, could you just be putting contaminated water into the iso tank?

MissFishy · Jun 6, 2009

It could be tainted food, I once started feeding a new brand of food and for some reason kept losing fish, I changed the food and the deaths stopped. Try that for sure.

Sounds like it could be some sort of contamination or poison if they are dying that quickly. Think carefully about whether the water or food could have gotten sprayed with something like air freshener, windex, etc.

kcormier · Jun 6, 2009

I thought about the tainted water thing, but when I transfer fish I continue to treat both tanks. The ph, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all still good. I'm lowering the ph because I want to be able to keep other fish in the tank as well. From what I've read these fish are ok at 8 but still don't mind lower to mid 7 as well so I'm trying to bring it a little closer to 7. I stopped lowering the ph when I was treating for fin rot. I just kept using the ph down on the tap to keep things the same along with the stuff to dechlorinae and prepare the water. The water is an even 78. I have thermometers on both sides of the tank to make sure the water isn't a lot cooler on the other side of the tank away from the heater.

The last two fish passed before I could even get them into the isolation tank.

I'm pretty sure it was the frozen worms. It's been ever since I started using that that I've been having problems. MissFishy you got me to stop and think about what might have been going wrong. I never even thought of it, but the razor I was using to cut off the chunk of worms to thaw may have been oiled or greased at the factory.

tropicalcrazy · Jun 6, 2009

kcormier said:

if it was a razor blade they come pre-oiled so to keep from rusting (i use these everyday for work and got many spare blades and this is what the factories do). im assuming after you said that that is the reason. i bet there was something nasty on that blade oil whatever it may be. heck maybe the frozen food got dethawed in process of moving from store to store and it got bad like normal food(which im assuming these do this)

1077 · Jun 6, 2009

In my view it is the fluctuating pH that is contributing to the fish deaths. The products you are using to lower the ph will work temporarily but the buffers in your tapwater (carbonate hardness or KH) will always work to raise the pH back . It is the carbonate hardness that fish feel, not the ph of your water. You adjust the pH with the product, and the buffering capacity of your water IE) KH is doing what it does to resist the change . Consequently, fish are being subjected to unstable water parameters.
Always best in my view, to keep fish that do well in the water or pH that you have, as opposed to trying to change water to suit the fish. I would expect more deaths while this expieriment continues. It is true that some fish adapt to changes in pH as long as the change is slow and the end result = a stable Ph but if buffering capacity of your tapwater continues to work against your efforts, then stability is not realized.
Also the fish you have prefer hard alkaline water. Having kept them , I can tell you that they do poorly in neutral or soft acidic water in the long term.
Were it me, (and it ain't) I would set up a separate tank for any fish you wish to keep that prefer softer water than the livebearers. I might try mixture of 50 percent R/O with 50 percent tapwater or 50 percent distilled with 50 percent tapwater for the separate tank. In this way you could keep the mixed water in rubbermaid tub to use for water changes and to expieriment with the mixture to achieve the desired pH. Aerate the mixture and heat it an hour or two before using it. You may wonder why you could not do same to lower the pH in the tank you have the livebearers in currently and it is because they will NOT do ok in soft or acidic water in the longterm.

MissFishy · Jun 6, 2009

PH swinging around will definitely stress the fish out. It's very hard to keep the PH steady if you're adding chemicals to lower it. Everytime you change water you'd have to match the PH exactly, then you have to worry about the buffering capacity of your water to maintain that PH over a long period of time. Most domesticated fish will be fine in your pH, I would suggest not messing with it at all.

bmoraski · Jun 7, 2009

its funny how new fish keepers ( i was one lol )are mostly worried about ph and dont know about ammonia, nitrites and nitrates and of coarse cycling ( the local fish place dont tell you, they just want to sell you a bunch of crap and give crap advise). i dont add any chemicals to my tanks except de-chlorinator when doing my WEEKLY 25%-50% water changes.
every post that i have read were people are adding chemicals like crazy are having major problems. and i feel bad for the fish.
i prefer the natural way, but thats just me.
good luck

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