Insight, Help, and possible Backhanding Welcome

breebrry · Jul 3, 2009

Ok so... here goes...

First off my bestfriend has a gorgeous 55g tank in the living room in her house.. mostly goldies, there are 2 koi and 2 shubunkins, and i think 2 goldfish (one is about 6in and the other maybe 3). Anyway everytime I go to her house I zone out in awe at the incredible colors and beauty of these fish...

which inspired me to get a tank...

for about 3-4 months i was planning and i already had a 10g all i needed was the lid and filter and air pump...

anyway my little brothers and i went to a carnival one night and won 4 feeder goldfish..i left them in their original water and put a small amount of tap water in a large fish bowl and called it good temporarily (the feeder fish were maybe an inch at best) by morning 2 were dead... that night was pay day so i went and bought all the goodies for tank setup.. got home set up the tank added some Start Right and got the bubbles going.. still keeping Ricardo and Nacho (my fish) in their original carnival tank water dumped them into the tank..

Note: I read all day at work friday pages and pages of info.. they all said fish need certain bacteria in the water.. so keeping them in their previous water was a way to help "seed" the tank.

now i read the 1in to 1 gallon of water rule and know that does not apply to growing fish however i thought as a starter the carnival fish would suffice if they survived for me to learn on.. again i know they are already over stocked in a 10g...

After the tank was set up and running my lil guys were scmpering around beautifully and i was loving the look.. a few plants and a house for them to hide and play and a large (approx 3-4 in) bubble stone for a curtain of bubblage..

after that night all was well my friend told me to take home another fish from her tank a small goldfish (approx 2 in) to be a "momma" fish to the little guys... so now in my 10g i have a 2 in and 2 1in goldies.. all were fine till a day or so ago.. the little ones are fine still the larger was laying in behind the bubble stone very lethargic and not really into eating.. he came out and ate once food had rested on the bottom i saw him picking at the gravel..

yesterday again same ordeal..

today i come home and see my little guys have what appears to be ick on their tails.. now as i mentioned i practically lived at my friends last summer.. so i dealt with helping her diagnose fin rott and ick in her tank 2 or 3 times.. she happened to buy fish from a store that everytime she added fish to her tank they got ick...

now as i sit here i wonder.. not so much of did the store give her fish ick or is ick prominent in her tank and the others have become immune to its effects.. because my thoughts at the moment are that the new fish she brings home are healthy and being added to an icked envirnoment and the stress level rises with a new home and all the new fish... and therefore springs the outbreak.. (sorry that was an off subject tangent)

anyway they larger fish (from her) is as i said very depressed looking laying around the bottom.. whereas the smaller are zooming around perky.. but the larger fish shows not spots... only the little guys (proving my point about the ick in her tank) my fish were fine until i added the new guy and BANG.. ICK...

now 2 things..

1 i should have kept him in a "hospital" tank for a bit to be sure and 2 it is an over stocked tank...

but how can i solve this??

at the moment i read all the posts on goldfish and ick i could find here and opted with the rising of the temp (around 85) and added 3 tbsp of salt.. (i added 1 tbsp when i started the tank) so all together there is 4 tbsp in a 10g and the temp is up...

any other ideas would be awesome.. and as i said.. backhanding is welcomed and expected...

thanx...

<3 bree

breebrry · Jul 3, 2009

also i changed 25-30% of the water today and added 1/4 tsp of start right (to help with the chlorine and chemicals in the tap water) i dunno if that was a good or bad thing.. but...

breebrry · Jul 3, 2009

the first picture is my friend's tank (minus some fish.. we had a few fatalities)

the second is of my tank.. minus some water so the filter agitated the water more..

in the pic of my tank (after heat and salt.. the big guy perked up...*confused* any idears?!

OrangeCones · Jul 3, 2009

Likely ammonia poisoning which will stress the fish and allow disease to take hold. Until the tank is cycled, you should be doing daily water changes of at least 50%. Goldfish produce A LOT of waste for their size.

Do you have a test kit to see what your water parameters are? Most local fish stores will do a free or inexpensive test if you ask. You should be monitoring ammonia, nitrite and nitrate.

PRIME as a water conditioner can detoxify ammonia and nitrite (read the label carefully for treatment of high nitrites). It does not interfer with the nitrogen cycle.

Orion · Jul 4, 2009

Welcome to MFT!

Adding the water from the 2 goldfish really didn't do anything to cycle the tank. For starters, very little bacteria actually live in the water column, the vast majority of bacteria live on the surface of things in the water. The substrate, decorations, filter media, and even the tank walls. Secondly, being from a carnival, I personally doubt that the water they kept those fish in was properly cycled to start with.

Some people say that the parasite that causes ick is always in the water. Some people say it's not. The fact's are that when fish are stressed, from things like being introduced into a new tank, brought home from the LFS, or are sick, this lowers their immune system and can allow the parasite to cause ick. So it might be possible that the new fish could have brought ick into her tank, or just the stress of the new surroundings or new tank mates allowed it to take hold. Either way, this is a perfect reason why a quarantine or hospital tank is a good idea. It gives new fish a chance to show any signs of illness, and get used to new surroundings which makes transfer into the main tank much easier on them. Also once fish are in the tank, don't add the water from the LFS with the new fish into the tank. You don't want to add what ever else might be in their water into your tank.

85 degrees is the right temp for treating ick for tropical fish, but make sure your reading about treating ick for goldfish and not tropical fish. Goldfish can survive higher temps for a while, but too long can cause damage because they are a cold water fish. I can't advise you much more on this part because I'm not that familiar myself, so just besure to research on them!

Good luck!

homebunnyj · Jul 4, 2009

Also, if you're using salt to treat the ich, then when you do water changes you need to maintain the sale concentration by adding a proportionally correct amount of salt to the new water.

breebrry · Jul 4, 2009

so today i came home and the temp in the tank still around 84 (no heater...just temp of room...) and still salty water.. with another partial water change before bed lastnight... anyway came home and one fish is completely clean of spots... the other has 2 spots (there were a good 10 or so on their tails) so i am going to do another partial water change quick and add a touch more salt and some start right and hopefully tomorrow we will be clean of spots..

NOTE .. i know not to stop treatment yet just to be sure... however i am excited to say the big fish is now swimming freely and seems to be doing ok...

MissFishy · Jul 4, 2009

Hey bree, welcome to the tank! The bad news is that both your friend's tank and your tank are overstocked, although both look very colorful and pretty. I suggest you take a look at either the freshwater stickies or the link below in my signature to read up on cycling a tank, since your 10g is overstocked, this will be a big problem for you. That is likely what the fish was suffering from, ammonia poisoning, and with the goldies in such a small tank, you will have to solve this problem ASAP.

Carnival fish are usually very stressed out to begin with and I'm not surprised Ich popped up on them. I suggest treating with heat for 2 weeks, I also explain this suggestion in the link below. You are on the right track though and kudos to you for coming on here and seeking help! Let us know what's going on with your tank!

ValRasbora · Jul 4, 2009

Hey when I first got my 10g my goldies got ich, too... Only mine didn't recover... You could maybe get a larger tank, just look in garage sales and on kijiji, one will probably be there. I can see how you where sorta hypnotized by goldfish's beauty and went and bought/won some... They are nice fish! They might have had ich "germs" in the water they where in... and you put that in the tank, right? It's OK as long as your fishies recover. Finally, good luck! Hope your fish recover!!

misterking · Jul 4, 2009

I think the above comments pretty much have it covered, but I do urge you to read up on the proper care of goldfish in aquariums. The problem with goldfish is they're large (potentially 1ft when fully grown), stocky fish that eat a lot and therefore pump a lot of waste into the water. Have a look about on ebay, craigslist etc for the cheapest deals but for your 3 fish I'd say a 55g would be adequate (almost minimal). I would never suggest putting a goldfish in anything less than a 30 gallon. They are, afterall, a species of carp.

As a matter of fact, our local annual fair came around today, and after a couple of years of not giving goldfish as prizes, they made a comeback, and one went to my friend. I actually dispaired whilst listening to her talk on the phone, about how she had a goldfish bowl at home she was going to put it in. I could have gone on for hours about the need to properly cycle the tank and how goldfish grow huge and that bowls aren't at all suitable, but it's almost not worth it. It's a sad fact that probably 90% of goldfish won at fairs will die in the first months due to inproper care and housing, and with a heavy heart I had to leave the conversation with "if it looks unhappy, I'll put it in my pond".

breebrry · Jul 5, 2009

i have been doing some research (again) and have decided that if my goldies don't make it i will probably do a heavy cleaning and then allow the tank to cycle for a while and look into some barbs and such.... i hope that they do... even just for the time being...

homebunnyj · Jul 5, 2009

breebrry said:

If by 'cycling' you mean sitting empty, you really must research more before buying more fish. Letting it sit does absolutely nothing to establish a healthy tank.

You need to get a test kit that includes tests for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. These should not be the 5-in1 strip kind, those don't test for ammonia and aren't very accurate.

Test your water daily for ammonia. Whenever it is over 1.0, do a 50% water change, I don't care if that means you have to change water twice a day. Once the ammonia peaks and begins to subside, test for nitrites. When nitrites read 1.0 or above do a 50% water change, no matter how often that is. This is how to keep your fish alive while the bacterial colony build up to be able to process the fish's waste products. Remember to add salt to the new water to keep the concentration at the proper level while you are treating the ich.

If you can get some gravel or a used filter pad from an established tank to add to your filter box, thereby 'seeding' your tank with beneficial bacteria, your cycle time will be significantly shortened. I don't know that I'd use some from your friend, though, although you are treating for ich currently....

The above measures should hopefully keep your fish alive through the cycling period. If they do happen to die, I see no reason to break the tank down, as the parasites can only live so long without a host. I would keep the heat cranked up as high as I could once the fish are gone, and begin to fishlessly cycle the tank. By the time the cycle is established through the addition of ammonia to the tank and daily testing to monitor the levels of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate, the ich should be dead.

bmoraski · Jul 5, 2009

Thank you Judy
that was perfectly worded !
its because of people like you taking time to explain even if it goes upon deaf ears, that make this the best forum !

homebunnyj · Jul 5, 2009

Thank yew, thankyewverymuch......

breebrry · Jul 7, 2009

homebunnyj... i thank you for your insight however it seems you think i am not listening to anything you guys say...

when i said about leaving the tank to cycle.. i meant if my fish dont make it i would stop changing the water to leave the poop (amonia) already in the water to cycle...

and also as far as buying more fish.. i have no intentions of buying them until the tank is cycled... (if my fishies dont make it) i never meant i was just going out and blowing money to fill the tank...

also.. i have been reading fish descriptions for like 2 weeks now finding appropriate fish for my tank.. and ones that would live harmoniously together.. telling me to do research was kind of a duh.. and i was somewhat insulted..

i am not arguing any of the facts you said... merely i feel that you are looking down on me as though i have not been paying attention this whole thread...

i am sorry if this post upsets you.. but i was kinda upset reading your post..

thank you though for your insight..

vahluree · Jul 7, 2009

breebrry said:

I think that might be taking a gamble. The problem is, you don't know how quickly the bacteria will consume the ammonia. Once they consume all there is, they will run out of food and die... then you are back to square one with an uncycled tank.
In order to keep the bacteria alive without fish in the tank, you have to be adding a daily supply of ammonia to literally "feed" your beneficial bacteria. You can add pure 100% ammonia to achieve this. This is where the test kits that homebunnyj recommended come in. By monitoring the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels in your tank, you can be assured that your tank remains cycled while there are no fish in it.

homebunnyj · Jul 7, 2009

I certainly didn't mean to upset you. I'm sorry about that.

I'm sure you have done quite a bit of research as to stocking your tank from your posts. I still research fishkeeping on a near-constant basis even though I've kept fish for four years now this last time... never mind the five years I kept fish in my twenties, bumbling through the best I could. That's why I come here, to learn more. Suggesting a need to research more is in no way saying that you haven't researched a lot already. And the fact that you want to cycle your tank indicates that you don't want to 'blow money' by tossing fish into poor conditions. I still get told to go research, so you might as well get used to hearing that, there's a lot of it in your future if you stay in fishkeeping.

However, your statement about leaving the fish waste in to fishessly cycle the tank does indicate a need for a bit more research on how to accomplish a fishless cycle in a tank. And, no matter how carefully you choose your fish, how much time and research you put into setting up your tank in the optimum way, they will only thrive in a properly cycled tank, as you know. As you also obviously know as evidenced by your efforts to gather the info you need to succeed, knowledge is a great help in accomplishing that. That's why you came here.

Miss Fishy's Guide to Cycling Your Tank explains exactly how to do it step by step, and there are lots of very experienced fishkeepers here who are willing to guide you either by answering questions or by pointing you to great sites with info on cycling a tank.

If we didn't care here, we'd just tell you to 'google it'!

(Oh, wait, somebody here does that... sorry)

bmoraski · Jul 8, 2009

homebunnyj said:

LOL
thats great !

jo3olous · Jul 8, 2009

breebrry said:

HMMMM For a 10G Tank...

I would def go with the fishless cycle. When I was new to fishkeeping I did a fish-in cycle, and wasted money killing 6-7 tiger barbs in the process. For a tank to cycle it needs the ammonia to get it started. Problem is ammonia at a high clip is bad for fish, so with fish-in, you do a water change to keep the levels down so the fish aren't harmed but this delays the cycle process.
Allow me to provide you with a simple image to explain:

Okay so in a cycled tank, this is the process that occurs (the plant is optional). Given that your tank is not yet cycled, the bacteria that converts the ammonia into nitrites > nitrates has not yet developed, leaving it as ammonia in your tank. That is bad for your fish. In a fully stocked or overstocked tank, the process is magnified making frequent water changes necessary. Even in an understocked tank, you should still be doing a 25-30% water change every other week at the least.

Now for when you've cycled a tank:

In a 10G your options may seem limited but you can still make a nice community. I would recommend this; Choose 1 schooling type of fish, then get 4-5 of those (preferably ones that do not exceed 2 inches). I would then choose some bottom feeders, and possibly a centerpiece fish. You may want to do something like this:

5 x Cardinal Tetras (1'')
3 x Corydoras Catfish (2'')
1 x Dwarf Gourami (1.5-2'')

I do not recommend buying a variety of schooling fish, because chances are they will not school together but they would school with their own species (don't do this: 1x tiger barb, 1x danio, 1x guppy, 1x tetra) In fact, those aren't even compatible!

Good luck and I hope this helps

MrNiteOwl · Jul 8, 2009

Well, I'm not going to comment on the cycling since everyone has done a great job of explaining that.... Where I do want to add my $.02 is in the researching.... This hobby of fish keeping is a great one.... especially when done correctly.... You can talk to people that have been doing it for a few months to 20+ years.... and a lot of the opinions and advice given will be different.... There is always something new to learn and there are so many different things about aquariums that you can't learn it all.... So when you have read up on what kinds of fish you want to keep.... read up on them again.... you'll find defferent books and websites will have or not have the same or totally different things on the same species..... That's why forums like these are great....

Another $.02 on Goldies.... the general rule of 1" per gallon is more like 10g's per Goldie.... at a min you want 20g for your first and 10g for every other Goldie.... you want to have very good filtration and keep up with your water changes.... not over feeding will also help.... Please do get a test kit.... most of us here use API Freshwater Master Test Kit.... online you can get it at about $18 and most LFS have them for $30.... but there are others.... as long as they test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate....

Hope this helps.... *PEACE!* *thumbsups

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