Ammonia Frustrated

[goheels1]

as i've mentioned before on this forum, i have a 55g tank that has been setup since july 5. but i forgot to mention some things. as of today, i am STILL having problems with high ammonia. i've been told to do water changes every 2-3 days to get it down in which i have been doing and still no decrease. my ammonia level hangs between 1.0 and 2.0. to make a long story short, i started with 'fish in cycle'. LFS store had me use Stress Zyme for 7 days straight when i first got the tank. by the 10th or 11day, they told me the tank was ready to stock with fish. they said i still had a lil ammonia but not enough to hurt the fish. i bought a few fish from them and from other stores. ttl of 15 fish within a couple weeks of setting up tank. well now, my ammonia has shot up and just WILL NOT come down. i have lost 7 of those 15 fish. i DONT want to lose the remaining 8 even though they look ok so far.

i got this tank from a friend who had it for just under a year. when i brought the tank home, i dumped all the water out except just enough to cover the gravel. i'm still using the filter she had on it which is an AquaClear 70. however, i did take the sponge out of it and cleaned it really good with tap water because it was dirty. i've since learned i should not have done that. here is my question. since there was still some water in the tank, why should i be going thru 'cycling' as my LFS told me to do or was it because i took out too much water? i'm wondering if there is something in the gravel that may be causing the ammonia not to go down. one day during one of my water changes, i did a gravel sweep and found a rusted bobby pin under the gravel. i didn't sweep the gravel when i got the tank; didn't think i would find foreign objects in it. i wanna do another gravel sweep to see if there is anything else there but i was told not to because it's still considered 'cycling' and i need the bacteria to grow.

i know it can take some tanks longer than 8 weeks to cycle but i'm thinking this was an established tank, i should not have to wait that long. am i wrong? basically, i've had ammonia every since owning this tank. i'm ready for more fish. thanks.

 

[homebunnyj]

Unless you brought the tank straight home, took fish out of it right before you moved it and put them back in the same day, the nitrifying bacteria died off due to lack of a food source. Since the tank went some time without fish in it, it was not cycled when you stocked it. I don't know what the sales person was smoking when they told you that adding stress zyme daily to an empty tank would cycle it, but I hope you never take any advice from them again.

Adding 15 fish made for a huge bioload -- a bunch of ammonia from waste -- and no nitrifying bacteria to break any of it down. That's why your ammonia is high and you lost so many fish.

Doing a fish-in cycle can take more than 8 weeks. As I explained above, you are starting from zero. It isn't due to objects in your gravel, it isn't due to not using the old water, it's due to starving the bacteria.

However, I do wonder why the ammonia hasn't gone down more and the nitrites haven't been the big problem lately. Do you have your own test kit? If not, pick up an API Master Test Kit as soon as possible. What are you currently doing to maintain your tank, other than the water changes, which are necessary to avoid losing more fish? Are you continuing to clean your filter media? because that is where most of the beneficial bacteria develop, and you could be destroying the colonies before they have a chance to properly establish. Leave the filter media alone, except if it gets clogged, swish it in a bucket of used tank water, which will be chlorine-free.

 

[goheels1]

i've been using the API test kit for ammonia & ph. i only have the strips for the nitrites & nitrates. heard the strips are not that reliable. as for maintaining the tank; i'm only doing water changes. as far the filter media, i have cleaned it once since the first time i cleaned out the sponge. i did as you mentioned; i swished it in the bucket of aquarium water. i did replace the carbon with some product called Detox2 which suppose to remove ammonia. obviously not working. is there anything else i should do? this ammonia is really bothering me. oh, another question. i bought some Top Fin bulbs in which some of the plants are starting to grow. could that be causing the ammonia? am i suppose to do anything special to grow live plants in the aquarium? i did have one live plant that i took out 2 days ago because it had started turning yellow and it had black spots on it.

as far as that sales person, i'm so done with that store. i've gone to them b/c they are the only 'all fish' store in this town. i figured they would know alot but i'm coming to see they are clueless. they are always trying to sell me some product & i'm done with them having me buy all those fish after a couple weeks of the tank setup. i was told to stay away from places like Petco or Petsmart in which i have now b/c they are not that knowledgeable either. but at least they are more friendly at Petco than the local fish store. i'm going to keep asking questions on this forum instead since i can't seem to get help locally.

 

[littletankbigworld]

You stocked your tank way too quickly. That's why they died. Also, because chemicals bought from any store cannot speed up the cycling process. Certain chemicals may be able to help along bacterial growth, but your fish tank will still take 8 weeks to cycle.

You are still going through cycling because you cleaned the beneficial bacterial off the filter. The whole point of the cycling process is for beneficial bacterial to grow on the filter so that it can remove fish waste.

 

[homebunnyj]

The ammonia-removing product may be the culprit. It can give you false readings on your ammonia test, and if it in any way makes the ammonia unavailable for the bacteria to consume - which I don't know if that particular product does or doesn't - then it would delay the cycling of the tank as well. As far as that goes, you don't need the carbon either. It's good to use after using meds, as it removes them from the water.

As to the plants, if you have ones that grow well in low light, they should be fine. They don't add ammonia to the water, they consume it. I'm not sure what the plant's symptoms mean, perhaps some of the members that have planted tanks will add their input.

 

[goheels1]

i don't need the carbon insert? this filter came with carbon, foam and bio-max insert. (not sure if this is standard with all filters) but you're saying i can do well with just the foam and bio-max insert? that Detox2 is a carbon blend that i placed in a carbon bag to help remove the ammonia.

 

[littletankbigworld]

About the plants, I'd do some research on the specific type of plant you bought. Some plants are difficult to care for and need extra light, vitamins, or CO2 pumps. Some good plants that look pretty and are very low maintenance are java fern, anubias, sword plant, and dwarf grass. I've heard anubias is fairly indestructible and your fish won't eat it. My sword plant is doing extremely well. The fish only nibble at the roots if they stick out of the water, but I keep the roots under the gravel, so it's not a problem. Plants are very beneficial and make your aquarium look really nice. I suggest getting a couple.

 

[littletankbigworld]

My filter didn't come with a carbon insert, and my tank is doing fine.

 

[goheels1]

thanks for the info you two. i researched the java fern as one of you mentioned. looks good. may look into purchasing one.

 

[OrangeCones]

If you use PRIME as a dechlorinator, it will detoxify the ammonia but not interfer with the nitrogen cycle. You should then seen nitrites and nitrates as things develop.

Java fern, java moss, and most of the anubius plants work well in lower light.

BTW - it says you have an ID Shark. Is this the Iridescent Shark (Pangasius Hypothalmus)? If so, he/she will need a HUGE aquairum someday. They can get 3 or 4 feet long.

Iridescent Sharks

 

[goheels1]

My nitrites and nitrate levels have always been safe based on my test strips & the LFS. But then again, these are the same folks that keep giving me misinformation and trying to sell products to complete the cycling of the tank. Hopefully these will be changing soon letting me know I'm getting close to the end of my 'cycling'. I am using the API liquid test for the ammonia & ph.

Thanks for the info about the plants. Been doing research on those particular plants.

And yes, ID is for Iridescent Shark. So many of my friends have told me to get rid of it but I've gotten attached to it. I told myself I will deal with its size later in the future.

 

[tlkng1]

PRIME and AMQUEL can give false ammonia readings...the API test kit seems to be sensitive to them. I was being plagued with constant low level ammonia on a tank I knew was cycled..it had been set-up for three years. I had switched from Stress Coat to PRIME for whatever reason and that is when I ended up with the ammonia readings..nitrites read 0, nitrates were steady at 15 +/-. I have since switched back to Stress Coat and my ammonia levels are reading correctly, though it took the equivalent of three, 100% water changes.

From the sounds of it, you are using an Aquaclear filter (you may have mentioned that somewhere but I missed it ) The BioMax ceramic (or whatever material they are) little thingies (nice technical term there ) are worthless. I do use the carbon insert just for water clarity. I run a separate sponge filter with a powerhead at the opposite side of the tank for more biological filtration and water movement.

I rinse my sponges in the removed tank water every other water change just to get rid of any dirt in the filter.

 

[1077]

I too have heard of false positive readings for ammonia with some test kits and while using Some water conditioners. But I do not believe it happens across the board. I say this because I use the API Freshwater master kit and PRIME water conditioner and have yet to observe this taking place.
I always recommend a water conditioner such as PRIME or AMQUEL+ because they specifically address ,Chlorine,chloramines,AND ammonia. Not all water conditioners address all three. Some water conditioners only address chlorine and chloramines. Chloramines are ,or is,, a combination of chlorine and ammonia. Those that only address chloramines ,detoxify the chlorine or remove it but they leave the ammonia for biological filter to break down. This is not a problem in mature aquariums or (cycled ) aquariums but in new aquariums,,there often is not sufficient bacteria developed to do this. It can also present a problem where traces of ammonia are present in tapwater. If water conditioner doesn't clearly say that it removes ,or detoxifys,chlorine,chloramines,AND ammonia, I will not use it.
False reading ,could indeed be the case here but I would also test the tapwater as well, to ensure I was not adding ammonia with each water change. This is all of course ,only my opinion.
I also agree that added biological filtration such as sponge filter,or even a nylon or mesh bag of ceramic media sold for this purpose couldn't hurt to help boost the surface area available for beneficial bacteria to colonize.

 

[Matt Nace]

From the sounds of it, you are using an Aquaclear filter (you may have mentioned that somewhere but I missed it ) The BioMax ceramic (or whatever material they are) little thingies (nice technical term there ) are worthless. I do use the carbon insert just for water clarity. I run a separate sponge filter with a powerhead at the opposite side of the tank for more biological filtration and water movement.

I rinse my sponges in the removed tank water every other water change just to get rid of any dirt in the filter.

I disagree about the biomax media being worthless. I have used differant brands and types for many years. If placed last in your canisters or on the top of the sponge(s) on the aquaclear, give a place for bacteria to live in on a more permanent basis. I rarely touch the bio max in my cleanings. I feel strongly that it holds much of the good bacteria in your filter if you have enough of it.The bacteria is also in the sponges as well, but in other filters I have lots of biomax and toss the floss on a regular basis.

I recommend 2 sponges and bio max in your filter. You can alternate cleanings on the sponges and rotate them. The carbon is not needed but at this time may contain good bacteria. So I would leave it for now until you know your cycled.Get rid of the ammonia detox stuff.

Perhaps as suggested , try a differant dechlorinator and retest for ammonia after a water change.

 

[homebunnyj]

So what is your ammonia reading right now?

Do you think it could be helpful to keep a log for a while, just to see if there's any correlation between the readings and tank events, such as water changes, filter maintenance, feeding days (assuming you're feeding every other day while your tank is cycling), and those ammonia readings? It might show a pattern over a period of time that could help identify the issue.

 

[OrangeCones]

PRIME and AMQUEL can give false ammonia readings...the API test kit seems to be sensitive to them.

The API test kit is not sensitive to PRIME (I know nothing about AMQUEL, have never used it, so cannot say how it functions) to give false ammonia readings.

The API Master Test Kit is measuring TOTAL ammonia, not just free ammonia (toxic). If the ammonia is bound (and now non-toxic), the test kit will still measure it. It is still there until converted to nitrite by the bactera present, or consumed by healthy, live plants.

There are much more expensive test kits that measure free ammonia and total ammonia. Then you can see how much is actually toxic to your animals and how much is non-toxic. For most, its not necessary.

Dechlorinators break the bonds of chlorine. If your water company uses chlorine gas (CL2), this is converted to non-toxic chlorine ions (Cl-). If your water company also uses chloramine (NCl3), any dechloriniator will also break the chlorine bond with nitrogen. This is called reduduction. This is where a standard dechlorinator can cause problems.

Once the nitrogen is freed from the chloramine, it can freely combine with hydrogen in the water and release some oxygen. This actually CREATES ammonia (NH3), which is toxic.

If the dechlorinator binds the created ammonia, they are no longer toxic but can still be used by the nitrofying bacteria and/or plants in the aquarium. PRIME is one example of a dechlorinator that does this. I'm sure there are others. But not all dechlorinators are created equal.

 

[goheels1]

i guess i could keep a log. i just tested my tap water as someone mentioned. it's reading 1.0...just like the numbers in my tank. so now what? does this mean my tank will not cycle because the tap water has ammonia? will my nitrites and nitrates never adjust b/c of the ammonia? i remember one day at the LFS they told me to buy some kind of water from them...forgot what it was called. i wanna say RO water. does this mean i have to do this now since i think the tap water is the culprit? i really don't want to buy any water. the remaining fish i have really seem to be doing fine. only thing i notice are the bosemani's colors changes off and on. i don't know if that's stress or just that species.

 

[goheels1]

i tested my tank water again this morning for the nitrites/nitrates. it shows the nitrate is rising just slightly. isn't the nitrite level suppose to rise first then the nitrate? i used the strips for testing. i'm going to purchase the liquids today. the ammonia is still at 1.0. i'm still going to keep the log as homebunnyj advised. thx

 

[1077]

Were it me,(and it ain't) And indeed I had ammonia reading from the tapwater, I may consider setting up a small ,or large,rubbermaid tub that would hold enough water for a couple water changes or more. To this tub I would place a hang on the back filter,and an aerator. the ammonia in the tapwater would serve as food for the filter media and over time,, the tub of water would become like a (cycled) aquarium. This water could then be used for water changes without adding ammonia to the tank or requiring the use of R/O system or water. After each water change,you would simply add more tapwater and the ammonia in the tapwater would continue to feed the bacteria in the filter on the tub. Is only cheap way I know of getting around ammoniain tapwater. Added benefit would be a ready quarantine tank if needed ,just add a heater.P.S. I would still use PRIME as water conditioner during water changes to play it safe.

 

[goheels1]

i'm so excited....did a water test today and my ammonia is .25 haven't seen that since...NEVER! just thought i mention this since i've had such a concern about it for the longest time. tested my nitrite... it's 0. tested nitrate...it's 5.0. as mentioned before, i started with 15 fish very early on, losing 7 almost immediately. eight of these fish have been hanging on for a few weeks until yesterday; lost my gold gourami. i really miss him. the rest look like they are going strong and now with the ammonia about gone, hopefully they will hang in there for a while. thanks for everyone's help and input. i know i still have to keep a watch on all these numbers. i'm hoping i'm right at the end of the 'cycle'.