Obscure fish deaths

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#1
I've had 2 fish croak on me over the past week and I can't figure out if its just a bad coincidence or symptoms of a greater problem.

I lost a red spot rasbora about a week ago, and when I got home last night (away saturday & sunday) for Easter, one of my black neon tetras (what was left of him) was stuck to the filter intake.

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate <12.5

I also did a 20% waterchange friday night.

None of my fish have shown any signs of illness. They all eat readily and have been behaving normally. The black neons often hang out in the current of the filter return, but like I said, all have been exhibiting normal behaviour. No signs of fungus or parasites either.

My tank has been high, 84 degrees for several months. (I got a cardinal and a platy a while back off craigslist and thought I might have introduced ick in the tank so I salted and turned the heat up - the ich never materialized, but I never turned the heat down.)

Yesterday I turned the heat down to 80.

So, any ideas on what maybe killed my fish or should I just think of it as a bad coincidence and move forward with the aquisition of a pair of cockatoo apistos?
 

Doomhed

Large Fish
Feb 11, 2003
687
0
0
42
Rhode Island
Visit site
#2
I wouldn't get the apistogramma just yet unless you have a quarantine tank ready. You don't want to lose your new fish and your old fishes.

You also have to realize higher temps in the tank both speeds up the fish metabolism and increases their O2 requirements. I turned up the heat recently to battle some ich, but I also run a 30-60 air pump with 2 outlets T-lined into 1 air line going out of a giant air stone running full blast all the time in addition to 45GPH filtration.

I would recommend an air pump whenever you turn up the heat. the neons might be staying near the filter outlet because it has fresh, oxygenated water.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#3
I have a penguin 125 and a topfin 30, so there is plenty of surface agitation, I was afraid adding an airstone would lower the CO2 available to the plants. I didn't realize, or thought about it really, how warmer temps increase the fishes' metabolism, but being a 'cold blooded' animal that makes sense. I'll see how the remaining fish do with a lower temp, and may lower it again to the 78-79 degree range.

I do have a quarantine tank, however it is a 2 gallon hex tank, so not a lot of room. 50w heater (a bit of overkill, but very sensitive and I can achieve the correct temp easily) It has a aquaclear powerfilter hanging off the side and the bag of bio-pellets is in the topfin on my main tank ready for use.

I'll keep watching the tank and maintain the lower temp. What are some signs of possible infection that may not be so obvious?
 

Aug 16, 2009
1,318
0
0
SW Pennsylvania
#4
Raised scales can be not so obvious in the early stages. Bloating is another not-so-obvious thing, unless your fish looks like the Hindenburg before it exploded. Ich is sometimes a little harder to see. It depends. Do you know about fish flashing? It's when the fish does rapid barrel rolls. Sometimes, the fish will flash for a second, and then you won't see it again until the next day. This is a definite sign of stress.

You could easily purchase an empty 5 gallon tank for about 6 dollars or an empty 10 gallon tank for 11 dollars. (Petsmart and many LFS around here sell empty tanks.) Either would make a decent quarantine tank.
 

Last edited:

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#5
Well, I got home today from work and the fish seemed lethargic. They didn't kill the frozen brine shrimp like they should so I knew something was up. I tested the water again and nitrites = 0 but ammonia showed about .1ppm.

Of course its Monday so I didn't have time to do anything and had to rush out of the house to take the 2yo to gymnastics. I get home an hour later and one of my ghost shrimp is eating one of my neons.

I had the 20 gallon setup from the rescue I did last month, so I filled that up, added conditioner and moved the topfin 30 and the aquaclear from the 2gal. Right now I have the heater from my main tank (50w) and the 50w heater from the 2gal getting the temp up. Then I'm going to move all the fish and whatever shrimp I can find into the 20.

I've thought about it and all I can think is that last week I must have introduced a toxin into my tank inadvertently. Maybe I put my hand in without washing it or didn't rinse soap off good enough. I don't know. I do know that there appears to be a film on the top of the water, almost oil-like but not "rainbow" like oil slicks are.

After I get the fish moved over I'm going to do a 100% water change from the top down. Instead of using the siphon I'm going to take cup fulls out to try and remove whatever might be floating on the top, in case it is an oily substance.

Any suggestions as I do this? It is a planted tank and I don't want to disturb any of the plants. They are all doing so well and don't show any bad signs.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#6
BTW, all my ghost shrimp are active and feeding (grazing). They seem fine. My tank must be going through a mini cycle and the ammonia is what killed the last 2 fish. I'm beginning to think the rasbora death a week ago was a fluke.

I didn't do anything different and can't figure out why my ammonia levels are high - could the fish that died over the weekend caused the spike? say if he died on friday night and I didn't remove what was left of the carcass until sunday evening?

How bad would it be if a drop of windex made it into the tank friday night? I spray the windex on the newspaper first though so nothing is sprayed in the direction of the tank....just trying to think of all possibilities.

Thanks.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#7
well I got 7 of the 9 remaining fish into the 20 gallon. Its tough getting those little fish out of a tank with a 20x10 footprint that is 20 inches tall and filled with plants. The 2 neons I couldn't get were in the best health as they were too quick and evasive for me.

I changed 10 gallons out of the tank that by my measurements holds 18 gallons, but probably holds closer to 15. I'll monitor the water quality and continue with the WCs. If my tank is cycling again the 2 neons in there will help it along, if it isn't they will continue to produce ammonia for the bacteria. I'll watch their condition and if they start to look weak I'll net them and move them with the rest.

The 7 fish in the 20gal look sad. They have no color and are real stressed. Hopefully they feel better tomorrow.
 

lauraf

Superstar Fish
Jan 1, 2010
2,181
0
0
Vancouver, British Columbia
#8
IDK for sure, but my gut is where you are at, as in: do regular partial water changes with lots of Prime, and not strip the tank down completely as you previously contemplated. Test water daily. Keep the plants in. Watch fish closely. Should get back to normal soon.
Don't know what could have caused this situation - spraying something like windex, well, those little drops can go everywhere!!! Maybe that's it . . ..
Good luck with your fish in the 20g - here's hoping they settle and/or can be moved back into the other tank soon.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#10
Well, this morning I had another black neon dead in the 20, but the two neons in the 18 seemed fine. I tested for ammonia and it was .025ppm in the 18g and around 1.0ppm in the 20. I moved all fish again back to the 18.

i'm convinced now my tank his cycling, since the topfin 30 that i put on the 20g came straight from my 18g, so it should have been colonized with bacteria and 7 tiny fish shouldn't have caused the ammonia to spike so high in 12 hours in a 20gallon tank with a fully colonized filter catridge...

So about half my fish have died and my tank is cycling again. I'll keep monitoring the ammonia levels daily and doing waterchanges as needed. What ammonia levels are ideal to enable my tank to continue to cycle while not stressing the fish out too much? .025ppm? .05ppm?

I'm at a loss as to how I caused my tank to cycle again. I know it took me about 40 days to cycle my tank correctly the first time. Is there a possibilty this will take less time? 2 weeks, 3 weeks?
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#11
I've taken a look at the dead fish and they all have red (blood?) around the gills. A sign of ammonia poisioning?
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#13
yesterday I did a 30% water change, checked the ammonia level afterwards and it was <.025ppm. Approximately 6 hours later I checked the ammonia and it was at 1ppm already! 18 gallon tank with 6 tetras 1 inch long and a half dozen ghost shrimp - how did the ammonia spike so fast? I noticed my tank is beginning to be over run with pond snails and mystery snails, what kind of effect would the snails have on my ammonia levels?

I had another dead fish last night, so I'm down to 5 (from 11):(. I'm going to pick up some ammolock on the way home from work this evening.

A couple questions:
  1. The ammolock will detoxify the ammonia but allow the nitrosomonas to feed on it, turning it into nitrite. Is there any product to detoxify the nitrite or will the ammolock only delay the problem for a week or two until nitirite levels rise and start affecting my fish?
  2. Assuming I can remove the shrimp and either move them to the small 2gal hex if I put some had-a-snail or aquarisol in the tank to kill off all the snails what kind of impact will the dead snails have on the tank? How long will this impact last?

I wish I knew how I caused my tank to cycle again, its really bugging me and a huge headache.:confused:
 

Doomhed

Large Fish
Feb 11, 2003
687
0
0
42
Rhode Island
Visit site
#14
you sure you have baby mystery snails? because unless you saw giant clumps of pink eggs above your water line, you don't have baby mystery snails.

I would just move the ghost shrimp and nuke the snails. they could easily be causing the problems if they number in the hundreds. you could also just capture them too using a slice of cucumber/spinach/carrot, a weight and a plastic tub with small holes drilled in the top half.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#15
I would say they easily number in the hundreds. I've tried the veggie route, no success, tried hand picking them and no success, take out my driftwood - where lots congregat - at waterchanges and rinse in the tank water being removed. They just keep multiplying. I cut back on the amount of food I was feeding dramatically and they kept multiplying.

I figured they were mystery snails because, they're a mystery to me. They are tiny, triangular little critters with hard shells that don't smash easily against the glass. I am certain I have pond snails as well.

Is it possible that my tank isn't cycling, it just can't keep up with all the waste from the snails and finally hit a tipping point and became overwhelmed?
 

Doomhed

Large Fish
Feb 11, 2003
687
0
0
42
Rhode Island
Visit site
#16
I would say they easily number in the hundreds. I've tried the veggie route, no success, tried hand picking them and no success, take out my driftwood - where lots congregat - at waterchanges and rinse in the tank water being removed. They just keep multiplying. I cut back on the amount of food I was feeding dramatically and they kept multiplying.

I figured they were mystery snails because, they're a mystery to me. They are tiny, triangular little critters with hard shells that don't smash easily against the glass. I am certain I have pond snails as well.

Is it possible that my tank isn't cycling, it just can't keep up with all the waste from the snails and finally hit a tipping point and became overwhelmed?
it is possible the hidden snail bioload is just insanely high. this is why we warned you about those ramshorns..lol
 

Aug 16, 2009
1,318
0
0
SW Pennsylvania
#18
I didn't get rid of my snails until I did a total substrate change. It looks like that isn't really an option in your case. Months later, the snails have returned, in my situation. My betta is soooo amused with the little critters.

I saw this bottle of stuff in a petsolutions.com catalog. It's called Had a Snail and I have no idea if it works, but if it does, it might just kill the eggs. There is also another chemical that works, but might only kill the eggs. It starts with a P...Help me out guys? I don't advocate adding chemicals and such into tanks, but it seems like you've tried all the other options.
 

phin

Large Fish
Oct 21, 2009
218
0
0
#19
had-a-snail is a copper sulfate solution, similar to, but stronger than aquarisol - a parasite/ich treatment/preventative. I've added some aquarisol to my tank after moving the shrimp over to the 20g.

Here's a wrench though:

I had spoken with them over the phone today and during the conversation we agreed that most likely the snails had caused the ammonia spike. I went to my LFS with a water sample from my 18 gallon tank. They tested my water (with a multi-test dip strip) and I verified the results right there. Ammonia & nitrite = 0, nitrate = 10ppm, alkalinity OFF THE CHARTS HIGH, pH OFF THE CHARTS HIGH > 8.0!!

I had them test their tap water (they have a huge RO unit they use and I could use for 50 cents a gal) since we are on the same city water. Their tap water showed as neutral pH and considerably less alkalinity. So now I'm wondering how in the hell my pH got so high and figure that must be why my fish died.

I get home and retest my tank water. Ammonia = .25ppm, nitrite=0, didn't test nitrate or alkalinity. I also tested pH with dip strips and a mid-range liquid test kit. The test strips gave a pH of somewhere between 7.5 & 8.0, while the liquid kit only goes up to 7.5 but was the exact color blue as the 7.5 on the chart. I test my tap water and it tests as 7.2 on the liquid kit, just a slightly greener and lighter shade of blue than my tank.

So I'm not sure if I provided a bad water sample to my LFS or if their test was wrong or if my liquid test just didn't pick up how high my pH was.

So I'm going to do 3 gallon water changes (appx 20%) daily, monitor the water, kill the snails, and see how it goes.

On the bright side no fish died today :)