Fish-in cycling, still no NO2

[fisherjean]

Hi all. We are completely new to this (we got my 5 year old a tank for his birthday) and I have what is probably a very basic question:

We set up a 26 gallon tank and our LFS instructed us to do a fish-in cycle. We currently have 1 male betta, and 4 tetras (we are letting him select fish, with some guidance of course, so don't flame me for mixing ecosystems please). The fish were added on 8/30 and we have yet to see any NO2 activity. I'm testing every day with API 5-in-1 strips, and API NH3/NH4+ test kits. I'm just going to list off everything I've done, which is per LFS instructions... I assume there are recommendations that some will disagree with, so I'd love to hear opinions and whys.

Filled tank with tap water.
Added Seachem Prime, per bottle dosage.
Began 7 days of Seachem Stability with a "loading dose." Adding to filter reservoir, btw.
Waited two days.
Added fish.
Have done 25% water changes every time the ammonia has gone >.5 - with R/O water only, adding a capful of Stability each time. I think I've done 3 changes total.

The ammonia readings continue to hover right around .5 every day. The general and carbonate hardness continue to max out the tests, which I would expect if I was still using tap water, but I'm not. Oddly the pH has neutralized.

I visited another LFS last night and they told me not to change out the water at all until the cycle is done.

So what's right?

Thanks for your time, it's appreciated!

 

[prsturm]

You're going to want to keep changing out your water. Water changes are the only way to dilute the toxic ammonia at this point. In fact, I would change 25 percent of the water daily until the tank cycles. To help reduce the toxicity of ammonia, you can reduce the pH of your water, as well as the temperature. There are different ways to reduce the pH, either with peat moss of some kind, or the artificial way of using chemicals. The test strips may be faulty, and getting a liquid hardness test and a liquid pH test will give you better and more accurate readings. You can also buy some sponge filter material to stuff into your hang-on-the-back filter (if you have one), in order to increase living space for beneficial bacteria and avoid filter mini-cycles when you change out the filter media.

Remember, any little thing you can do will help. If you can't do water changes every day, do them every other day. If your tank is at 76, drop it down to 74 or 73 (if your ambient air temp. allows).

 

[Thyra]

I hope someone else jumps in here because I do not feel qualified. Also I don't understand what R/O water is (in my language that stands for "Rule Out".) Anyway why aren't you using tap water? What is the normal pH of your water and I have been told if it is not completely wacko, don't mess with it because a pH change is more dangerous to fish then having it consistent and if you start chasing it with water chances you will have problems. (Later if you get really exotic fish this is a different matter) The other thing I was told was to turn the temp up to give the good bacteria a chance to grow. That made sense to me because that is what you would do in a lab to make bacteria grow faster. I hope someone that has been around longer than I can verify some of this info.

 

[blue_ram]

Hi all. We are completely new to this (we got my 5 year old a tank for his birthday) and I have what is probably a very basic question:

We set up a 26 gallon tank and our LFS instructed us to do a fish-in cycle. We currently have 1 male betta, and 4 tetras (we are letting him select fish, with some guidance of course, so don't flame me for mixing ecosystems please). The fish were added on 8/30 and we have yet to see any NO2 activity. I'm testing every day with API 5-in-1 strips, and API NH3/NH4+ test kits. I'm just going to list off everything I've done, which is per LFS instructions... I assume there are recommendations that some will disagree with, so I'd love to hear opinions and whys.

Filled tank with tap water.
Added Seachem Prime, per bottle dosage.
Began 7 days of Seachem Stability with a "loading dose." Adding to filter reservoir, btw.
Waited two days.
Added fish.
Have done 25% water changes every time the ammonia has gone >.5 - with R/O water only, adding a capful of Stability each time. I think I've done 3 changes total.

The ammonia readings continue to hover right around .5 every day. The general and carbonate hardness continue to max out the tests, which I would expect if I was still using tap water, but I'm not. Oddly the pH has neutralized.

I visited another LFS last night and they told me not to change out the water at all until the cycle is done.

So what's right?

Thanks for your time, it's appreciated!

Just keep up what you are doing. The RO is not really needed, and IMO is environmentally unfriendly as you waste 10 gallons of water for each gallon of RO water you create.

The tank will take up to 3 weeks to cycle.

 

[fisherjean]

You're going to want to keep changing out your water. Water changes are the only way to dilute the toxic ammonia at this point. In fact, I would change 25 percent of the water daily until the tank cycles. To help reduce the toxicity of ammonia, you can reduce the pH of your water, as well as the temperature. There are different ways to reduce the pH, either with peat moss of some kind, or the artificial way of using chemicals. The test strips may be faulty, and getting a liquid hardness test and a liquid pH test will give you better and more accurate readings. You can also buy some sponge filter material to stuff into your hang-on-the-back filter (if you have one), in order to increase living space for beneficial bacteria and avoid filter mini-cycles when you change out the filter media.

Remember, any little thing you can do will help. If you can't do water changes every day, do them every other day. If your tank is at 76, drop it down to 74 or 73 (if your ambient air temp. allows).

Thanks. I will definitely drop the temp and get liquid tests next time. I'm just about through the 25 pck of strips at this point.

Also I don't understand what R/O water is (in my language that stands for "Rule Out".) Anyway why aren't you using tap water? What is the normal pH of your water

Reverse Osmosis. Our tap water is crazy hard. The tests I have max out readings for GH and KH at 180 and 240 ppm, so we are either at or above that. The city rates it at 18 grains. The pH is 9.

The RO is not really needed, and IMO is environmentally unfriendly as you waste 10 gallons of water for each gallon of RO water you create.

The tank will take up to 3 weeks to cycle.

Based on those parameters, do you still think I can get away with tap water without doing a lot of pH monkeying around? I know R/O is not very ecosmart, but I really thought that was my only relatively straightforward option.



I guess I'm still wondering though: does the nitrite/nitrate action happen in a flurry at the end of the cycle? Because we're nearing the end of 3 weeks and I've yet to see any nitrites at all. Or is there nothing odd about what I've described?


Thanks so much for all your input!

 

[OrangeCones]

Stability of pH is far more important that trying to get a specific number. Did your fish come from a fish store near you? What is the pH of the store's water? It may very well be high like your tap water is and the fish have acclimated to it just fine.

Since you have tropical fish, I would not recommend lowering the temperature.

Just my 2cents
OC

 

[Thyra]

Thanks OC. I really don't like to suggest things myself, but I was basing it on what I was told that made sense and I am glad you were available.

 

[blue_ram]

Thanks. I will definitely drop the temp and get liquid tests next time. I'm just about through the 25 pck of strips at this point.



Reverse Osmosis. Our tap water is crazy hard. The tests I have max out readings for GH and KH at 180 and 240 ppm, so we are either at or above that. The city rates it at 18 grains. The pH is 9.



Based on those parameters, do you still think I can get away with tap water without doing a lot of pH monkeying around? I know R/O is not very ecosmart, but I really thought that was my only relatively straightforward option.



I guess I'm still wondering though: does the nitrite/nitrate action happen in a flurry at the end of the cycle? Because we're nearing the end of 3 weeks and I've yet to see any nitrites at all. Or is there nothing odd about what I've described?


Thanks so much for all your input!

Wow, you water is harder than ours in South Florida. Maybe dilute the tap water with 25% RO to soften it a little and bring the PH down to about 7.5 ish. Have you thought about an african cichlid tank?
Have you tested for Nitrates and Nitrites. When Nitrates appear and Nitrites and Ammonia are at 0, your tank is cycled.

Once a small bacteria colony is established, it will double in size every 8 hours in response to the fish loads.

 

[fisherjean]

Did your fish come from a fish store near you? What is the pH of the store's water?

Oh, yeah, that would be a good question to ask! They definitely seemed stressed up to the first water change, but not critically so in my admittedly novice opinion. They just were sort of shy... I'll call today and ask that though. Thank you!

Wow, you water is harder than ours in South Florida. Maybe dilute the tap water with 25% RO to soften it a little and bring the PH down to about 7.5 ish. Have you thought about an african cichlid tank?
Have you tested for Nitrates and Nitrites. When Nitrates appear and Nitrites and Ammonia are at 0, your tank is cycled.

Once a small bacteria colony is established, it will double in size every 8 hours in response to the fish loads.

Yeah I wasn't kidding, it's hard water! As soon as starting reading here it was evident immediately that I could probably put cichlids in our tap water pretty easily. But this little 26g has got to get conquered first. I'm definitely dreaming of stocking my own tank with African cichlids! I saw a really beautiful YouTube vid of a 180g that sold me on the idea.

I've tested every other day, minimum. No nitrites or nitrates. Today is day 19. That's the part I am the most puzzled by, but it sounds like they could show up any day now, just kind of out of nowhere (in terms of testing values)? ???

 

[blue_ram]

Thanks. I will definitely drop the temp and get liquid tests next time. I'm just about through the 25 pck of strips at this point.



Reverse Osmosis. Our tap water is crazy hard. The tests I have max out readings for GH and KH at 180 and 240 ppm, so we are either at or above that. The city rates it at 18 grains. The pH is 9.



Based on those parameters, do you still think I can get away with tap water without doing a lot of pH monkeying around? I know R/O is not very ecosmart, but I really thought that was my only relatively straightforward option.



I guess I'm still wondering though: does the nitrite/nitrate action happen in a flurry at the end of the cycle? Because we're nearing the end of 3 weeks and I've yet to see any nitrites at all. Or is there nothing odd about what I've described?


Thanks so much for all your input!

Oh, yeah, that would be a good question to ask! They definitely seemed stressed up to the first water change, but not critically so in my admittedly novice opinion. They just were sort of shy... I'll call today and ask that though. Thank you!



Yeah I wasn't kidding, it's hard water! As soon as starting reading here it was evident immediately that I could probably put cichlids in our tap water pretty easily. But this little 26g has got to get conquered first. I'm definitely dreaming of stocking my own tank with African cichlids! I saw a really beautiful YouTube vid of a 180g that sold me on the idea.

I've tested every other day, minimum. No nitrites or nitrates. Today is day 19. That's the part I am the most puzzled by, but it sounds like they could show up any day now, just kind of out of nowhere (in terms of testing values)? ???

It is possible that the fish load is so small for the tank that the strips are not accurate enough to pick up the small amounts if nitrite and nitrates.

 

[brian1973]

Hello and welcome.

I thought I had read somewhere that using 100% RO water was not good but cant remember for sure, I havent used stability before so can you enlighten me on what it is for, good choice on using Prime..

As for the cycle, I think that your fish load is so small it will take a while for it to begin cycling. My own personal opinion is I wouldn't do any water changes unless your ammonia reading, with a liquid kit, is over 1ppm. Also I have read raising the temp can help speed up the cycle process.

When I got back into this hobby quite a few yrs ago, I researched about tank cycling and the overwhelming advice I found was to fill with water and fish and wait until after nitrates came up then do a large water change, essentially waiting for the cycle to end before doing anything. This is what I did and I didnt lose any fish at all, lucky for me.

 

[littletankbigworld]

I would do water changes often, as high ammonia can be lethal.
Test strips are highly inaccurate and it is much better to invest in a liquid kit that measures ammonia, nitrate and nitrites.

 

[fisherjean]

Thanks for all the ideas!

I got a liquid kit, and it's still reading 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. However, I called the LFS and they said to make sure I'm not drawing mid-tank - to make sure the sample is coming all the way from the bottom.

They also said you can use algae color as an indicator - we have a little bit of brown coming, which he said indicates nitrites. When I see green forming, that's supposedly indicative of nitrates... or so he says. We'll see!

 

[fisherjean]

Update: I've laid off the water changes, and the bottom the the tank nitrite reading was .25 and ammonia is dropping, so we are actually finally getting somewhere!

Waiting this out is NOT a very easy task for the patience challenged!

 

[achase]

Waiting this out is NOT a very easy task for the patience challenged!

It never is easy but remember cycling always makes your life easier in the end.

 

[brian1973]

Thanks for all the ideas!

I got a liquid kit, and it's still reading 0 nitrites and 0 nitrates. However, I called the LFS and they said to make sure I'm not drawing mid-tank - to make sure the sample is coming all the way from the bottom.

They also said you can use algae color as an indicator - we have a little bit of brown coming, which he said indicates nitrites. When I see green forming, that's supposedly indicative of nitrates... or so he says. We'll see!

I was really hoping someone else would respond to this so I could get some other opinions but I have never taken a water test from the bottom of the tank, my theory is the water is circulating thru the filter so the test should be accurate no matter where you take it, I just dip it in and done, been doing it that way for years, and have never seen it posted anywhere or in the instructions in my kits to test anywhere specific.

As for algae, again i have never heard this before so maybe someone else has though, Google causes of algae in an aquarium, but I would NOT use algae as an indicator for cycling, there is more that goes into algae forming than just nitrites and nitrates but a combination of factors. Some have perfect water conditions and end up with algae while other do not, there is more than one green colored algae as well as more than one brownish colored algae.

Does sound like your making progress so just keep doing what your doing and you should be ok, just be diligent so if the nitrites spike you are ready.

 

[achase]

I have never taken water sample from the bottom of the tank and never had any problems cycling my tanks. I think the only true method of testing your water and checking the cycle is to use a liquid test kit. I also wouldn't use algae as an indicator. I know it takes a while but soon the test color will change.

Also just a word of warning its always best to take LFS's advice with a grain of salt (it that the right way for that phrase) because sometimes (not always) they don't really have enough knowledge or just tell you what you want to hear to make a sale. I'm not saying your LFS are any of these but just a word of caution....many people have been burned before by their LFS.

 

[fisherjean]

Thanks guys. I get what you're both saying. I'll keep close tabs on it. As an aside, I picked this particular LFS because it had like 35 glowing, detailed reviews via google maps from people who didn't sound new to the hobby. I'm in a major metro area with lots of LFS, and these guys are doing free house calls for troubleshooting and they've spent at least an hour total on various phone calls with me. They definitely have heart, and I'd like to think they know what they're talking about, but I know it's my responsibility, not theirs.

Anyway, he said the densities of nitrates and nitrates are both heavier than water - I did use a liquid kit, btw. I have a hang-on filter that breaks the water surface, but I don't really feel like the whole tank is experiencing that much circulation honestly. IDK. I definitely got slightly different readings, mid tank versus bottom. ???

I think with the algae thing he was only referring to start up, not using that as a barometer for an established tank. I won't stop testing though, promise! *thumbsups