Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate

[MarkSD]

Hello Guys, I am new to the hobby and was hoping for suggestions. I have been researching tons over the last week or two. I bought a 38 gallon tank from a guy and it was sitting for 5 months empty. I was told at the pet store to buy API Stress ZYME and Stress COAT and put that in the water for 2 weeks according to the bottle. This was all before I was informed by all my reading online to not buy this stuff. Anyway I read more about adding ammonia source and such to get the cycle going so I search all over and found some ammonia. Now I started about 2 weeks ago with the API stuff from the pet store and new water etc. No fish. About about 4 or 5 days after that I had done more reading about the ammonia source and added ammonia to the tank but first tried to figure out the number of ml of ammonia per gallon of water to give me about 5ppm, well something wasn't and it ended up being more than planned. It was dark dark green on the API chart for the ammonia test. After a few days like that and the water got cloudy(might of been from a not cleaned carbon filter - new one), anyway I decided to change out some water to bring down the ammonia level closer to 5ppm. I changed out about 40% and I still have high ammonia levels but I think they are under 8ppm but maybe closer to 4 ppm. Water change was last week sometime. Been checking the levels about everyday since and ammonia has stayed the same pretty much. I am kind of wanting some advice on what to do now? I also added some more stress zyme on the 7th day. I checked today and I have ammonia still high, nitrites at 0 and nitrates at 0, PH I think it high, had to use the high PH test and it still didn't match quite right. I then tested the tap water PH and it was 7.6. So I am wondering what made the water PH a lot higher, also what to do next? Hoping something can help me out.

Please keep in mind that I use well water with a water softener. I also haven't had any kind of heater in there because it was on order. So water temps have been in the low 70 I would guess. I have had a filter running the whole time and I just added an air stone last week.

Sorry for such the long post but I wanted to fully explain it all and I hope I haven't confused anyone. I will try to post back late tonight otherwise tomorrow.

This looks like a great forum and I really appreciate your help.

Mark

 

[aakaakaak]

Mark, Welcome to MFT!

Here's a list of questions/comments.

1. Did you make sure that the ammonia you bought didn't have surfactants or fragrance or anything in it? If it did you probably need to start your fishless cycle over.
2. You don't need stress-zyme or anything in your tank with a fishless cycle. There are no fish in there to get stressed.
3. What kind of water softener are you using with your well water and what does it put in the water?
4. Try and keep your ammonia levels at about 4-5 ppm until they roll over into nitrates. (I.E. You get a nitrate reading greater than 10.) Then do a super duper monster gigantic water change and retest the water. Once this is done you're good to go for fish.
5. Because you're not using a heater it will take longer to get your ammonia to roll over. Go buy a heater and crank it into the low 80s.
6. Be sure you're using your API Master Test Kit right. Ammonia bottle 2 and Nitrate bottle 2 are not for show. They're to be used in the same water as the #1 bottles. Nitrate bottle 2 needs to be shaken well. Shake it like the neck of an ex-girlfriend who done you wrong.
7. You don't need to change out the water on a fishless cycle (until the end). You can't kill anything with nuclear water if there's nothing there to kill.
8. Once your cycle goes through your tank water will be close to your tap water (once you change it).
9. So, with a guestimated ph of 7.6 you should be looking at fish that meet that criteria, plus suited for a 38 gallon tank.

Good luck! Keep us posted.

 

[nanu156]

African cichlids like water in that PH range, they are colorful and do well when crowded. Do some reading bout them if you can

 

[Artemis_Psyche]

Shake it like the neck of an ex-girlfriend who done you wrong.

Bahahahahaha is that the technical term lol?

 

[aakaakaak]

Bahahahahaha is that the technical term lol?

Normally I link the Outkast song (Hey, yeah! Shake it like a polaroid picture!) but I felt like branching out.

 

[MarkSD]

To answer a couple of things, the ammonia near as I can tell has no scents or anything else. It was a 10% ammonia also. As for the water softener, it is a water boss softener and I use Morton System Saver II pellets in it.

As for the ammonia levels, since I added too much before, thats why I changed out some water but it is still high or maybe in range now. Do bacteria just form in the water and start eating the ammonia, thus making the nitrites and then another bacteria eats those and makes nitrates?

I had ordered a heater and just got it today and i just got home and the tank is at 81 degrees now. Should I just leave it the way it is and not touch it? Its been this way for awhile now with no change but maybe this heated water will help.

I have a API master test kit and read the directions for the tests so I understand that for testing.

Should I watch the ammonia and if it actually drops down to where I can notice the drop, should I then add more ammonia then?



As for fish I am not sure what to get yet. cichlids look cool but not sure how many you can get in my tank and they tend to be somewhat aggressive or can be unless you get the more timid ones. Was looking into tropical some, like the gourami but not sure if I should stick with all the smaller ones or the bigger ones plus other fish. Lots of ideas i guess. 38 gallon isn't that big now that i look at it more.

 

[aakaakaak]

38g is about the perfect size tank for your first one. It allows for mistakes to be made and still not completely destroy your tank.

Keep your ammonia levels at about 4-5 until it rolls over into creating Nitrates.

Here's an explanation of the bacteria cycle. I hope it explains the bad/good bacteria deal:
The Nitrogen Cycle

Keep your heater at 81. That's a good fishless cycle temperature. You could even bump it up a few degrees to around 84.

To get an idea of what fish would work with what, plug in your tank and filter information to this site and play around (remember to come back and ask about your fish combinations as well as do your own online research. The site is far from perfect.):
AqAdvisor - Intelligent Freshwater Tropical Fish Aquarium Stocking Calculator and Aquarium Tank/Filter Advisor

Generally speaking, Tetras and south american cichlids are for lower PH, Danios and Barbs work with mid to high PH, South american cichlids work with high PH. This is a general estimate and not all of one type of fish follow this rule. There are always exceptions. Remember to research the fish you're looking at getting before you get it. One of the things I like to do is look at a certain type of fish I'd like to keep in the store, write the name down and then go home and research it. That way you know the fish is in stock, if it will work in your tank, and if it's not there when you get around to getting back to the store, you'll have at least some idea of what happened to them (I.E. they died of disease or something.).

 

[Artemis_Psyche]

Normally I link the Outkast song (Hey, yeah! Shake it like a polaroid picture!) but I felt like branching out.

Hahaha I like it! That is my shaking anaolgy of choice lol, although I did have to bench it awhile back since my boyfriend had never heard the song so the analogy was completely lost on him... So uncultured lol!! *SUPERSMIL

 

[aakaakaak]

Just point him here:
YouTube - OutKast - Hey Ya!

 

[Artemis_Psyche]

Lol oh I educated him on the song once he didn't get the joke, but it was that having to explain it that ruined it for me! I was more in disbelief that he had never heard that song, I thought everyone knew that song lol! Shows me for dating a metal head haha!

 

[nanu156]

Africans africans

Generally speaking, Tetras and south american cichlids are for lower PH, Danios and Barbs work with mid to high PH, South american cichlids work with high PH. .

So it's AFRICAN cichlids that like 7-8PH. You are in the right range.

Because your softener uses salt I would advise against plecos, snails, and anything else that is SCALELESS.

I don't know that much about softeners or how much salt they add but I do know that aquarium salt is bad for anything w/o scales so I would advise against anything with out scales. If you are going to a store that sells salt water fish you can take some water in to have them check the salinity. Maybe it's low enough do add something scaleless but until you get the hang of fish keeping I would not advise anything scaleless.

So Africans are very cool, they are active an aggressive. BUT an african tank is for african's nothing else really works (ok there is a short list of other fish you can add but as a newbie I would use the african's only standpoint)

Ok so where to start. Well it depends on what you can get.

I like breeders for the following reasons

-they are fish people and will help you if you ask
-they are a huge resource and a wealth of info
-they frequently sell used stuff
-they are FAR LESS expensive
-you are less likely to buy a sick fish from them
-they have things you can't get other places.
-they know other breeders, they can tell you things about local shops that you wouldn't otherwise know etc.

So now you say well Nanu where would I find a breeder?

Well thats a great question, I have this friend craig and he has this list, more of a website called craigslist.org. Throw Cichlid in the pets section as well as in the general for sale section. Betcha betcha you find a bunch.

Ok so if you can't find a fish breeder and want to go to a local shop. Go on a day when it won't be busy, so you can bend the guys ear a bit, look at the tanks and pick something pretty.

Africans are hit or miss, some fish will grow up mean, some will grow up overly passive and some in between. Some of it is the breed, some of it is the fish.

I wold suggest 10-15 africans (start with 6-8, add fish weekly/bi weekly) till you get to the 10-15 mark.

Africans actually THRIVE when crowded, it disperses aggression, and reduces the territorial issues.

If you aqua-scape the tank all the way up to the top you will get more action in the top of the tank. I stack slate from top to bottom, in a hap hazard stack, leaving the front half of the gravel empty but having the back half of the tank decorated with hidey holes etc all the way to the top.

When you buy a new fish write down what you bought when you bought it and where (I write on the side of the tank in permanent marker alcohol will wash it off if need be in the future)

and yeah thats it. the rift lake fish are pretty hardy and they are fun to watch. I would advise that you don't buy more then 3 of any fish, and only 1 of anything that is super aggressive. See the list of super aggressive below. The aggressive guys are ok to have but need to be kept in singles.

-Aratus
-Chipoke
-Bumblebee
-Red or green Jewel
- some zebras are also aggressive some aren't, I would start with 1-2 and see how they do. that's 1-2 zebras total (the color distinction doesn't matter it's like having a black or a white cat they are both cats)

from here is is just an experiment. you try a fish out and see how he works.

 

[Dylandrewsdad]

Great Advice on the breeder and LFS Nanu! If you have never been or are not sure about a LFS, go in and ask a question you know the answer too? Even if it quite simple, like I have a 10 gallon tank and wanted to put 60 neon’s in the tank is that OK? Then you can follow up with, I can just dump them right in right?

I am lucky in that I have a great LFS in the next town over who also breeds alot of his own stock! (Doing the “I'm lucky” dance)*BOUNCINGS

Good luck and the best advice I can give you is to try build a relationship with your LFS, it is better for everyone in the end!

 

[eternal]

These posts have been a great hope here also, thanks all esp the nitrate link!

 

[MarkSD]

Thanks all for the info thus far. I have my tank in the 80's for temp and I keep checking the ammonia and nitrite levels. I tested the nitrite but forgot about it so i will check it later today. Ammonia is still high I think. Kind of hard to differentiate between the colors but it is still darker green. I am hoping the nitrites will start to show more than 0 then I know the process might be working after all this time.

N0t sure on fish yet. LFS said that the Blue and Gold Rams are pretty docile and could be with other fish. But the more I got to thinking with my size tank, maybe I don't want real bigger fish in it. Which would put me back to keep only tropical which is fine for now also. I like the Gourami but some of them get big as well.

Are tetras a schooling fish, one LFS said no but online I read yes.

Wha kind of bottom feeders would you guys suggest? Are bristle nose any good? I don't want something that gets huge either.

Also do you find that most heater are accurate? Mine seems to be off from that it reads and also the digital temp gauge I have is off as well. I double checked them with another thermo and a no contact infrared one to. My heater reads lower than temp and the thermo in the tank reads higher then temp. Go figure.

 

[Artemis_Psyche]

Hi Mark! Yes tetras are schooling fish, I'm sure there are some varieties that don't but for the most part all the ones I've researched do. That said, that is why one you decide on a specific tetra it is good to do some research on it before you buy it as they will all have different traits. Like for example when my lfs told me that serpae tetras were non aggressive community fish that would work with any tetra, and two days later I ended up with four dead neons from fin nipping! Still to this day I have not convinced them that they are a semi aggressive fish lol! As for the bottom feeders, I personally don't have any yet, but when I was posting what to stock my 36gallon with Aak suggested the bristlenose to me soooo I assume they're good? I believe they only get to be about 4". He also suggested the rubbernose pleco to me as well, as a good option for my tank, so you might want to look into that as well. I can't remember which one I asked my lfs store about, but one was fairly pricy. Also Aak had suggested maybe a pearl gourami for my tank so that might be an option for you if you are wanting a centerpiece fish in your tank.

 

[aakaakaak]

So it's AFRICAN cichlids that like 7-8PH. You are in the right range.

Oh crap! That was a super bad typo on my part. I almost killed me some GBRs!

 

[AquaticTim]

I'd be careful with the gaurami's if you are planning on having a less aggresive community tank. In my experience- they can get aggressive.

As far as your tank cycle, to be honest.. (And I know people will dislike this comment) I would get 6 danios and let them get it going!. Yes, you may lose one or two.. but they are a pretty hardy fish and should really kick-start the cycle naturally without needing all the chemicals.. And on a tank that large- there should be enough water that they won't have a problem. Now, If you are a PETA extremist and don't want any possible chance of a half inch fish dying.. then you may not want to do this option.

OR better yet- try to find any other fish keeper and get some of their filter media to put into your filter.. This would basically lead to an instant cycle as you will already have the benificial bacteria. (if you go this route, make SURE to add at least a few inches of fish within 24 hours so the bacteria has some ammonia to stay alive.

To each his own, but this is what I would suggest. As starting a fishless cycle can be a lenghthy process.. and in my experiences, I prefer the more natural route. IF you can find some filter media from an established tank, AWESOME. If not, toss in a few danios and their little bit of ammonia produced should start a bacteria colony in your filter before it becomes a problem for the fishies.

(now bring on the cruelty to half inch fish comments)

 

[Dylandrewsdad]

OR better yet- try to find any other fish keeper and get some of their filter media to put into your filter.. This would basically lead to an instant cycle as you will already have the beneficial bacteria. (if you go this route, make SURE to add at least a few inches of fish within 24 hours so the bacteria has some ammonia to stay alive.

This is the best way IMHO, but if that is not an option, 6 Danios in 37 gallon should be fine as long as you check you water parameters daily and be prepared for 50% water changes daily as well when needed.

 

[OrangeCones]

Rather than losing one or two fish in a fish-in cycle, you can use a dechlorinator that can bind ammonia, test your water often, and do a lot of water changes. With increased aeration, you can overdose the dechlorinator to detoxify the nitrite spike too.

I'm not going to drag this out, but I don't have less compassion for a fish because of its size or cost.

 

[MarkSD]

Hey Guys, here is an update so far. Been keeping my water in the lower 80's, been testing the Ammonia and Nitrite to see if there is any change, noticed now tonight that the ammonia I think it getting lower maybe closer to 2ppm, and not the nitrite is starting to show color now and so I think it is just at .25ppm. Water is a little more cloudy then before but not too cloudy. So should I add more ammonia then to get the ammonia a little higher so there is more food for the bacteria to make more nitrite? I have a 10% ammonia bottle so maybe I can just add a tiny amount of ammonia. I have a syringe that hold 5ml so I can add any portion up to that. I am guessing I will add just a fraction of a ml. thoughts?