Is my Kuhli loach sick and how to help it?

[LunaRaeB]

Hello everyone! This is my first post, so bare with me if you don't mind. I want to give you some background info before I get to the problem. I think the more info I give you guys, the more you might be able to help me.

I have a 20 gallon tank. (Like an idiot..) I got it around March 30th and started putting fish in it. I was too excited to wait to put stuff in it, and I didn't really know that I needed to 'cycle' it. I started with gravel, some decor, and four Glow fish. Then one died, and I bought some more because I was told they needed to be in larger groups. A few more died. My friend bought me three painted tetra and an Angel fish, and a bubbler for my birthday. Oh it gets worse... I kept finding dead fish, of course, and all my birthday fish died too. My angel was the saddest death though, one of it's side fins wouldn't move so it just swam in a circle. Poor baby.

Right now I have: 1 Rainbow Shark, 4 Kuhli Loaches, 2 Mickey Mouse Platties, and I want to say 6 glow fish. I have changed from gravel to sand (as I had read somewhere that gravel could harm my loaches because they like to "burrow", which I have yet to see them do). Since I am at work, I can't tell you the current temp of my tank but I do know it's in the 70F-78F range. I've been testing my water constantly. Last time I checked it said: nitrate (safe), nitrite (safe), hardness (very hard, 300), chlorine (safe), Alkalinity (very high, 300), and pH (alkaline 8.4). I have done two water changes since I first got the tank and plan to do a water change on Sunday. Also I currently do not have a light fixture over my tank (LPS has been out of the size I need) so the only light they get is if I'm home or if I leave a light on while I'm gone. I'm usually gone for a good 12 hours, but that is changing since my semester is over and summer break has started for me. I work about 8 hours a day, so sometimes I leave a light on in my bedroom while I'm gone, and then cover up the tank when I come home so they can have some dark time. (I live in the basement of my parent's house. No windows in my room. I have one air vent which is on the opposite side of my room as my fish. My fish tank is right next to my bed. And yes I have a heater in my tank. )

So far, it's been a little over a week since my last dead fish but I'm worried about one of my Kuhli loaches. He'd been hanging out in a tube (that I put in there, I have a Mario desert theme fish tank and added some tubes they could swim or hide in) and I noticed he was laying on his back. I freaked out, of course I think he's dead. So I stick my arm in and try to get him out, he started moving but not like the usual "OMG GET AWAY FROM MEEEEE" movement. He swam in little circles, hitting hid head against the rest of his body or having like seizure looking-freak out movements but not really going anywhere. So I got him out of the little tube and he didn't mind being in my hand (underwater). Then he'd have a freak out moment and wiggle around again. I grabbed a plastic box that my friend gave me in case I ever have baby fish, so I put it on the side of the tank and put him in there. I checked on him and gave him some food but so far he just lays there, sometimes on his belly and sometimes on his back. When he does move it's a quick spasm, often times rubbing his head against his body. Then being still again. I don't know what to do to help him. He doesn't appear to have any odd coloring or anything on his body. He looks pretty normal from what I can tell. (Checked on him this morning and gave him some food). I feed my fish - flakes, dried blood worms, and I also have some wafers for bottom feeders. I've never seen any of my loaches eat, but I know they like to come out when it's dark, so I can only hope they're eating while I'm not looking.

Any suggestions?

 

[MomBitBit]

Whatever you do, DON'T add any more fish right now! Sounds like the bacteria/disease is in your water, so you definitely need to do a complete water change. Do you have a smaller tank to temporarily keep them in? A 10g or so? It wouldn't be a bad idea...as you add back the ones appearing to be healthy, STILL don't add any more for a good while till you make sure they will be ok. If they continue getting sick, wait and then start over from scratch and complete cleaning if your tank, adding a few fish at a time, placing in a 10g quarantine tank first...

 

[CAPSLOCK]

The strange movements are odd - does it look like he maybe injured his back? Like he has no movement in the rear half of his body? Or a visible hard "bend" in the middle of his body?

I agree, don't add any more fish right now. Check the ammonia if possible, and if there is any present do a water change to reduce it. Though usually if ammonia is a problem, it will be a problem for more than just the one fish. If the fish seem to be breathing hard, that could be related to ammonia.

 

[OrangeCones]

Find out the exact readings for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate so we can help. The answers of 'fine' are not real readings. Seems like its ammonia poisioning.

 

[LunaRaeB]

So, I came home and found another Kuhli had died, and the sick one wasn't looking any better. I went to get my water tested at my LFS, and it's pretty bad. They used an API kit. I didn't write down the numbers but they where all pretty much either the last or second to last darkest color. Everything was bad. Apparently the test strips I have suck. At any rate, I came back the next day to talk to the main guy that works there. (The girl suggested that I clean out 100% of my water, scrub everything down, and then refill my tank. This sounded like a horrible idea.) He gave me something called smart start or quick start (for free)? He said it had live bacteria and it should help fix my tank. He said to get a sample and bring it to him on Monday and we'd see where we need to go from there, and to change out some of my water, so I did that. So far, my fish seem okay for the moment. Everyone looks happy, my shark is out and about which is rare, he usually stays hidden most of the time. One of the two loaches I have left, came out for a bit too. I watched him eat. I will update you all with some numbers tomorrow morning when I take my sample in.

Sorry I didn't have any real numbers before. I'm pretty new at this (obviously -_-) but I'm trying. My sick loach is gone. I couldn't stand watching him die.

 

[FreshyFresh]

Yep, you need to invest ~$25 in an API master test kit, or something similar. They can be had cheaper online, but you typically have to have a minimum order to get free shipping.

Like said, the only numbers that matter at this point are ammonia, nitrite and nitrate (in that order). Don't worry about pH, hardness, etc, right now.

Don't remove and scrub things from the tank, but water changes are OK. You can remove the water right down to an inch from the gravel if you want. Don't forget to dechlorinate the water first.

Read up on establishing a proper nitrogen cycle in the tank and don't add any more fish until you have established a proper and stable cycle. Quick start products don't do much if you read up on them. At this point you can continue your cycle with 1-3 very hardy fish, or which ever still remains in your tank.

Remember, you need to do weekly water changes on any freshwater tank. Even more on ones that are not healthy. 10% is a minimum water change. Most do more like 25% or more.

 

[LunaRaeB]

Today's test:
Ammonia is slightly over 1, Nitrates is between 40/80 (color is hard to read), and the Nitrites is above 5.

Solution: He gave me some of their water from their tanks to put into mine. I did that and then left for work. He also mentioned having a sand bottom could make it harder to have a bacteria bed.

Will test again in three days.

Question: The main guy at my lfs said I should only do water changes every 4 weeks. I'm so confused. I have people telling me about a million different things. Do water changes weekly, don't do water changes weekly, only change 10%, change 25%, change 50%. Don't worry about the chemicals - they'll sort themselves out. Do worry about them, buy this stuff and put x amount in your tank, don't buy anything just do water changes. -_- GAH! I'm seriously this close to just starting over, giving the fish I have away to someone else and taking everything out and starting from the beginning again. >_<

 

[CAPSLOCK]

You shouldn't need to add chemicals that are for lowering / raising pH, adding "supplements," or any such. Just dechlorinator for water changes, and if you want to add Prime or something to bind the ammonia you currently have so it is non-toxic you can do that. The thing is, it is better to have a consistent pH than to swing it around trying to hit some "magic number." If you are regularly doing water changes, that will remove nitrAtes and restore any of the trace minerals in the tank that may have been used. Fish will adjust to your specific water, especially since most freshwater fish are tank bred anyways.

Really just the water changes should take care of things. Since you currently have high nitrites, you should be most of the way through the cycle. While you have ammonia at 1ppm, and high nitrites, you should do a large water change (50% would be good) to lower those levels. Ammonia and nitrites are toxic to fish.

The water from a tank doesn't contain much if any bacteria. It grows on surfaces like filter media, substrate, decorations, plants.

Everyone is going to tell you what works for them. While you have ammonia / nitrite present, you need to change water more frequently than once a month - it may need to even be every other day or daily to keep the ammonia level non-toxic. Once it is cycled and stable, then it comes down to what works for you and what you can keep up with. So if 10% changes weekly keeps the water quality good, do that. If you prefer or schedule-wise can do just every 2 or 3 weeks, it'll probably have to be more like 25% changes. If you have a heavily stocked tank, you'll need to change out more water than if you have fewer fish.

 

[lauraf]

While you have ANY ammonia or nitrites showing, you should be doing large daily water changes. Ammonia and nitrite are highly toxic to fish, so while your tank is cycling you need to keep the levels as low as possible. (After the cycling is complete, you shouldn't have ammonia or nitrite at all and you can do weekly or bi-weekly water changes, depending on your nitrate levels. Nitrate above 20ppm tells you it's time for a water change, regardless of how much time has gone by.)

 

[FreshyFresh]

LunaRaeB, just to add to other the other great info on this thread, keep in mind your LFS owner quite often doesn't offer the best advice for fish keeping. Nothing against them! They typically don't have the time to research current best practices. They're busy running the store and selling product to stay alive. Usually what they offer are practices that were used decades ago.

If you think about it, nothing could remain healthy living in the same recirculated cube of water. In their natural habitat, water is continuously refreshed removing or atleast greatly diluting harmful stuff.

 

[LunaRaeB]

Thank you for all the help everyone! I'm not sure if one of my loaches was just hiding this morning or dying, again. I have a plastic tube tunnel I made from plastic plumming tubes for my fish to play in, and he's in there but I can't reach him. It seemed like a fun idea until now.. since I can't reach him unless I take the whole darn thing out. I was trying to build a Super Mario 3 theme tank. Anyways,

This morning I took out about 10% of my water and put in the water he gave me. I had planned to do water changes every Sunday (since Sundays are my "chore" days, cleaning/doing laundry and what not). I did put some Prime in it (about half a tea spoon).

So I'm going to stick with doing water changes every Sunday, and I'll have to figure out how to clean the sand. -_- With the black gravel, I didn't notice all the fish poo but with sand I do. Ugh. I'm also going to look into live plants and if that will make my fish happier than plastic plants.

 

[OrangeCones]

I'm not sure if one of my loaches was just hiding this morning or dying, again.

he's in there but I can't reach him.

The loach should move if you attempt to get to him. If he is dead, the body will cause huge spikes in ammonia and nitrite while it decays. Getting the body out is important.

I did put some Prime in it (about half a tea spoon).

You can use Prime to bind nitrite as an emergency. This is a temporary fix. Be careful with the dosing, as all products that can bind ammonia and/or nitrite, it does so by removing oxygen from the water. Adding extra aeration is an important step listed on the instructions.

So I'm going to stick with doing water changes every Sunday

If you are showing nitrites of 5pm, your fish will not survive with a 10% water change every Sunday. The fish will likely suffocate due to 'brown blood disease' before the week is up. Daily 50%+ water changes are needed to bring the nitrites down.

 

[LunaRaeB]

On the plus side, both of my loaches are fine. I get nervous when I don't see them move, since I've had so many fish fatalities.

As of Sunday: Ammonia between 0 and .25, Nitrates between 80 and 160, Nitrites about 1.0 (it's really purple on the test), and PH is a 6.4

I went home and did a 50% water change, and used a little bit of Prime once again. Yesterday I didn't have a chance to do a water change like I had wanted but I am doing another when I get home tonight. My friend is also going to let me borrow her siphon thing so I can try to get the poop off of the sand. I don't really know any other way to do it, but it doesn't seem like it would be too hard to do. I did it when I had gravel.

- I did not know that about Prime, thank you! I will stick to using the Aquasafe or whatever it's called that I have. I'm suppose to put not even a cap full into new water before I put that water into my tank to get rid of the chlorine, and I am taking your advice about the daily water changes! (though I missed yesterday)

I'm also looking into the idea of putting live plants in my tank after I get the Ns down.