Cycling Tank Algae
- Thread starter RockingCricket
- Start date
I think the theory of thought on the 100% change came from FW. (I didn't go read the link I'm sorry...) In a FW cycle the big change at the end of the cycle is to get rid of the majority of the nitrates that built up during the cycle.
I'm just now learning SW after being only FW for a long time, so that sounded familiar. The difference in the SW cycle is that ideally its a completely different process than it is with FW (even though it has the same reasoning behind it) In SW the goal is to have NO nitrates (or very low) and so everything we learn in FW to convert everything to nitrates is null. This is why you can use a canister filter on the tank...but shouldn't have any filter media in it...because you're just using it for water movement through the live rock (which IS your filter). Of course I'm not sure how you're cycling or where the bacteria is building up...since you dont have any LR.
That being said...from what I've read on inverts and cleanup crew...yes mix and match. See what you like and what you need. If you have a deep sand bed you probably need some nassarius (sp?) snails to dig through there and stir it up...I think the snails and some hermit crabs would be great. Shrimp aren't necessarily part of the 'cleanup crew' as they are in FW either. (Everything is different)
I would be scared to put any more animals into your tank w/o adding some LR first and getting the cycle done. I've JUST added my first fish to my tank last night after being set up and cycling for over three weeks...and I made sure ammonia and nitrites are at 0 and nitrate is between 0 and 5ppm.
btw you can click the edit button instead of adding more posts if you want
I'm just now learning SW after being only FW for a long time, so that sounded familiar. The difference in the SW cycle is that ideally its a completely different process than it is with FW (even though it has the same reasoning behind it) In SW the goal is to have NO nitrates (or very low) and so everything we learn in FW to convert everything to nitrates is null. This is why you can use a canister filter on the tank...but shouldn't have any filter media in it...because you're just using it for water movement through the live rock (which IS your filter). Of course I'm not sure how you're cycling or where the bacteria is building up...since you dont have any LR.
That being said...from what I've read on inverts and cleanup crew...yes mix and match. See what you like and what you need. If you have a deep sand bed you probably need some nassarius (sp?) snails to dig through there and stir it up...I think the snails and some hermit crabs would be great. Shrimp aren't necessarily part of the 'cleanup crew' as they are in FW either. (Everything is different)
I would be scared to put any more animals into your tank w/o adding some LR first and getting the cycle done. I've JUST added my first fish to my tank last night after being set up and cycling for over three weeks...and I made sure ammonia and nitrites are at 0 and nitrate is between 0 and 5ppm.
btw you can click the edit button instead of adding more posts if you want
As far as your clean up crew i think you can mixem up a little to your own taste just make sure you get a mixture that cleans different items not all that eat the same thing. As far as the urchins i think i would wait for the tank to completly cycle out and sit for awhile as they are very tempremental and you could end up just wasting your money. From my experience inverts are not the hardiest of animals and you can lose alot if your water fluctuates too much.
I have the blue plastic round balls in my protein skimmer, 1 liter of the ceramic matrix and the double carbon crystals in the emporer, and of course the 2 biowheels, and then another liter of ceramic, fine partical filter mesh and the usual muck sifting sponges in the fluval. Am a givng sufficient surface area for my bacteria to grow on, or am I giving TOO much filtration?
I will somehow aquire some amounts of LR, wait for all my tests to reach zero and then add my cleanup crew (whoever they may be). Or am I gonna need the crew to get my levels to zero?
As always, thanks for the assistance guys.
I will somehow aquire some amounts of LR, wait for all my tests to reach zero and then add my cleanup crew (whoever they may be). Or am I gonna need the crew to get my levels to zero?
As always, thanks for the assistance guys.
Unless you are cleaning the sponge in your Fluval every few days, I would take them out as they are nitrate breading grounds. To me it sound like you are filtering your water to much. Really all you need is Protien skimmer, LR and power heads for water flow.
As for a clean up crew, these are my choices:
-Banded Brittle Star (very good at getting into all the little nucks & crannies)
-Olive Snails (keeps the substrate turned as they live underneath it most of the time)
-Dwarf Blue Leg Hermits (make sure to get some extra empty bigger shells for them to grow into)
-Emerald Mithrax Crab (eat various algea including "Bubble" as well meaty foods)
-Blue Tuxedo Pincushion Urchin (I've had mine ever since I sarted almost 3yrs ago very easy to keep and is reef friendly and only gets to about 3")
-Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp (I think every tank should have at least 1 of these guys (they are good at keeping the fish free of external parasites and as well scavenge for food left on he substrate not eaten by the fish)
Of course you will need LR for these guys to live a healthy life.
As for a clean up crew, these are my choices:
-Banded Brittle Star (very good at getting into all the little nucks & crannies)
-Olive Snails (keeps the substrate turned as they live underneath it most of the time)
-Dwarf Blue Leg Hermits (make sure to get some extra empty bigger shells for them to grow into)
-Emerald Mithrax Crab (eat various algea including "Bubble" as well meaty foods)
-Blue Tuxedo Pincushion Urchin (I've had mine ever since I sarted almost 3yrs ago very easy to keep and is reef friendly and only gets to about 3")
-Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp (I think every tank should have at least 1 of these guys (they are good at keeping the fish free of external parasites and as well scavenge for food left on he substrate not eaten by the fish)
Of course you will need LR for these guys to live a healthy life.
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OK so assuming I have very llittle live rock, and am compensating for this loss of filtration with extra filtration, what steps might I take to compensate for the loss of grazing that most of the tang and angels apparently require?
What I'm hearing echoing everywhere is that I need to get some sodding live rock. I understand this is preferential, but FOWLR tanks are not where I believed the SW world began. I assumed that a simpler (but not as balanced) tank was possilble. Surely a FOW(Out)LR?
Thanks Salty for the cleanup suggestions. Will check each one out. Am favouring the blue skunk and scarlet tuxedo *celebrate
What I'm hearing echoing everywhere is that I need to get some sodding live rock. I understand this is preferential, but FOWLR tanks are not where I believed the SW world began. I assumed that a simpler (but not as balanced) tank was possilble. Surely a FOW(Out)LR?
Thanks Salty for the cleanup suggestions. Will check each one out. Am favouring the blue skunk and scarlet tuxedo *celebrate
For the tangs (not sure about the angels) you can put in some dried seaweed which you can pick up at your LFS or most grocery stores this will also benifit alot of the Inverts if the lack of proper algea is not pressent.
As for the LR I'll just say this...It is better to learn from the mistakes of others than of your own. (And cheaper) People aren't just telling you this info about needing LR for the fun of it! Not to say it can't be done without, but I don't recommend it. When I first sarted SW I used to use alot of that mechanical filtration and this and that, I tell you my tank and water quality has been so much better off without it now.
As for the LR I'll just say this...It is better to learn from the mistakes of others than of your own. (And cheaper) People aren't just telling you this info about needing LR for the fun of it! Not to say it can't be done without, but I don't recommend it. When I first sarted SW I used to use alot of that mechanical filtration and this and that, I tell you my tank and water quality has been so much better off without it now.
You're right, the world didn't begin with live rock. The problem is I remember this world, and one of the key features of it was that almost everyones fish died after 3 months. I'm not kidding, the fish were very, very temporary, and/or had a rep for being impossible to keep. In a world where everyone used tweaked versions of frshwater setups they were, to paraphrase a pioneer Alf Nilsson, 'glass death boxes'. Apart from damsels, almost nothing made it, and things like tangs and angels were considered super challenging. This is where one of the problems with predicted tank sizes came up - you didn't need to size a tank for what the adult fish would need as noone ever got an adult fish, so it was a moot problem.
Anyway ofr a clean up crew hermits are near indestructible, snails less so and urchins and stars quite fussy about water stability though if you have this urchins are very effective.
The problem with all your filtration is that is all set up to produce nitrate very effficiently with no thought of what to do with it. It will go somewhere - dentrafication, water changes and/or algae. Due to the very rough surface at micro scale of live rock, an anaerobic layer of bacteria can exist below the layer of bacteria that produce nitrate, these will remove nitrate to nitrogen gas. As you have little denitrafication at this point I would imagine at some point in the future your algae growth will go nuts, especially when you get adecent accumulation of phosphate
Anyway ofr a clean up crew hermits are near indestructible, snails less so and urchins and stars quite fussy about water stability though if you have this urchins are very effective.
The problem with all your filtration is that is all set up to produce nitrate very effficiently with no thought of what to do with it. It will go somewhere - dentrafication, water changes and/or algae. Due to the very rough surface at micro scale of live rock, an anaerobic layer of bacteria can exist below the layer of bacteria that produce nitrate, these will remove nitrate to nitrogen gas. As you have little denitrafication at this point I would imagine at some point in the future your algae growth will go nuts, especially when you get adecent accumulation of phosphate
I have tested the water from my tap and the phospates results read zero. I have also tested the water in my tank and the phosphates reads a very low 0.05 so it would seem that phosphates are NOT the cause of my algae bloom.
Seems that what I should do is follow RobMiller's suggestion (thanks Rob) and clean the algae off by hand.
Do I need to do this cleaning within a bucket of my tanks water in the hopes that this will minimise the amount of benefitial bacteria lost, or do I have sufficient breeding grounds elsewhere in my tank to allow me to give the dead and crushed coral a thorough cleaning in the bath?
The rest of my current tank results are:
Ammonia = 0.75 ppm
Nitrate = 15 mg/L
Nitrite = 5.0 mg/L (High)
pH = 8.2
Spec Grav = 1.023
Temp = 79
My specs indicate that my tank is coming to the end of it's cycling period.
I spoke with my LFS today and they said that they would be willing to either give or sell for cheap the rubble left in their LR shipment boxes. No shipment coming in for 2 weeks though.
At what point should I add my cleanup crew? After the tank finishes this cycle, or once the LR is added and the tank has then cycled again?
Sorry, so many questions as always.
Seems that what I should do is follow RobMiller's suggestion (thanks Rob) and clean the algae off by hand.
Do I need to do this cleaning within a bucket of my tanks water in the hopes that this will minimise the amount of benefitial bacteria lost, or do I have sufficient breeding grounds elsewhere in my tank to allow me to give the dead and crushed coral a thorough cleaning in the bath?
The rest of my current tank results are:
Ammonia = 0.75 ppm
Nitrate = 15 mg/L
Nitrite = 5.0 mg/L (High)
pH = 8.2
Spec Grav = 1.023
Temp = 79
My specs indicate that my tank is coming to the end of it's cycling period.
I spoke with my LFS today and they said that they would be willing to either give or sell for cheap the rubble left in their LR shipment boxes. No shipment coming in for 2 weeks though.
At what point should I add my cleanup crew? After the tank finishes this cycle, or once the LR is added and the tank has then cycled again?
Sorry, so many questions as always.
I would not add anything to the tank until the nitrites were much lower preferably zero amonia needs to be zero to it would be very difficult for anything to be subjected to those types of conditions coming from the lfs as there water quality will be much better right now. You have plenty of other places the algae can grow in the tank i wouldn't think you would hurt much cleaning the glass
I use a magnetic scraper on the glass. I'm not adding anything apart from LR now. I was asking at what point should I add my cleanup crew? Could they take the bioload of new cured live rock being added?
And I'm also asking for the best method in cleaning my algae covered dead coral? ...or should I let my crew even handle this?
Today I removed a florescent kitchen light from the canopy (because the wrong spectrum of light can cause algae blooms, is this correct because I would like to replace the light if not???) and reverted the positions of the others tubes. Noted that one is a blue actinic, another a 10000K and the other i couldn't make out. What kind of level light will this give me in a 90Tall regarding inverts?
The fish are overly stressed by the change in lighting. Should I revert the light positions again or add the removed bulb or what?
The convict gobies also have small round lighter spots arond their midrift which were not there before. Is SW ich similar to FW ich?
And I'm also asking for the best method in cleaning my algae covered dead coral? ...or should I let my crew even handle this?
Today I removed a florescent kitchen light from the canopy (because the wrong spectrum of light can cause algae blooms, is this correct because I would like to replace the light if not???) and reverted the positions of the others tubes. Noted that one is a blue actinic, another a 10000K and the other i couldn't make out. What kind of level light will this give me in a 90Tall regarding inverts?
The fish are overly stressed by the change in lighting. Should I revert the light positions again or add the removed bulb or what?
The convict gobies also have small round lighter spots arond their midrift which were not there before. Is SW ich similar to FW ich?
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OK, by marin standards phosphate .05 is not a super low level, you preferably want to be testing zero. However as the majority of test kits, apart from the Merck one, are somewhat inaacurate you can really only use them as no,yes,lots tests.
Cleaning the algae by hand will be an increasingly hard battle. When full grown hair algae kicks in you'll find it can grow an inch a day. A lot of people will tell you, and I agree with them, that while dissolved ammonia, nitrate and p are important, the fun really starts when the stuff is just long enough to trap debris - that's why part of the algae war is to have pretty strong circ - when your turnover is 25x per hour you don't see much trapped debris.
When ammonia goes to zero get the cleanup crew in. Nitrite is less anissue as it's not toxic in that pH and with all the Cl- ions dissolved in the water.
Marine ich is similar to fresh in appearance, but in your setup will be a sod to fix. Certainly now we won't be able to copper the tank as 1. it iwll kill everything and 2. all the CaCO3 in your tank will absorb it as fast as you're putting it in. Thus IF you have ich you will probably want to hypo the tank, which means you reduce the salinity to about half of normal or a bit lower. This is a nice soft cure, and effective, unlike some other cures people will suggest (Kick Ich, RX-P and garlic are all ineffective i.m.o.) but first you have to make sure it is ich, and not just stirred up debris. It will look like little sugary crystals.
If you hypo the tank do not put the cleanup crew in as the reduced salinity will certainly kill snails though crabs are usually able to handle it down to a salinity of 1.010. But beware, cyano slime algae loves hypo so you will likely get a huge bloom of that, but you can easy fix that when you've finished. Also don't put the LR rubble in to reduced salinity water. You will be running hypo for a full month or 6 weeks, so if you have to get the rubble then put it in a yoghurt or ice cream pot a couple of gallons in size with some salt water and float it in the tank to keep it warm.
As I understand it you have three normal out put fluor tubes over a 90 deep. That is not going to keep you going with any photosynthetic organisms I can think of. I think you could try mushrooms, but that's it. You can keep photosynthetic orgs under fluorescents (I do it) but they don't punch far into the water, so anything deeper than a foot or so is too deep.
Cleaning the algae by hand will be an increasingly hard battle. When full grown hair algae kicks in you'll find it can grow an inch a day. A lot of people will tell you, and I agree with them, that while dissolved ammonia, nitrate and p are important, the fun really starts when the stuff is just long enough to trap debris - that's why part of the algae war is to have pretty strong circ - when your turnover is 25x per hour you don't see much trapped debris.
When ammonia goes to zero get the cleanup crew in. Nitrite is less anissue as it's not toxic in that pH and with all the Cl- ions dissolved in the water.
Marine ich is similar to fresh in appearance, but in your setup will be a sod to fix. Certainly now we won't be able to copper the tank as 1. it iwll kill everything and 2. all the CaCO3 in your tank will absorb it as fast as you're putting it in. Thus IF you have ich you will probably want to hypo the tank, which means you reduce the salinity to about half of normal or a bit lower. This is a nice soft cure, and effective, unlike some other cures people will suggest (Kick Ich, RX-P and garlic are all ineffective i.m.o.) but first you have to make sure it is ich, and not just stirred up debris. It will look like little sugary crystals.
If you hypo the tank do not put the cleanup crew in as the reduced salinity will certainly kill snails though crabs are usually able to handle it down to a salinity of 1.010. But beware, cyano slime algae loves hypo so you will likely get a huge bloom of that, but you can easy fix that when you've finished. Also don't put the LR rubble in to reduced salinity water. You will be running hypo for a full month or 6 weeks, so if you have to get the rubble then put it in a yoghurt or ice cream pot a couple of gallons in size with some salt water and float it in the tank to keep it warm.
As I understand it you have three normal out put fluor tubes over a 90 deep. That is not going to keep you going with any photosynthetic organisms I can think of. I think you could try mushrooms, but that's it. You can keep photosynthetic orgs under fluorescents (I do it) but they don't punch far into the water, so anything deeper than a foot or so is too deep.
Thanks Wayne. On the ball for me as usual. I'm not confident that I have ich. If confirmed I will come to you for more help regarding performing a hypo if I may.
All the fish are looking a lot more settled this morning. The growth rate of the brown diatoms seems to have dropped off a bit. I think my circulation is pretty good, but if it gets to the point where debris is being trapped, I can increase the flow of the fluval, or fire up a power head or 2.
You're right. I do have three normal output fluor tubes over a 90 deep with space for one more. I'm trusting what you say about this being inadequate for most inverts, although the Foster & Smith book describes the 10000K as being high intensity and ideal for reef setups and I was under the impression that Actinic blue lamps were able to penetrate deeper than non-blue light. Are my clean up crew going to require higher lighting levels than this? Can I add a tube for any advantage?
All the fish are looking a lot more settled this morning. The growth rate of the brown diatoms seems to have dropped off a bit. I think my circulation is pretty good, but if it gets to the point where debris is being trapped, I can increase the flow of the fluval, or fire up a power head or 2.
You're right. I do have three normal output fluor tubes over a 90 deep with space for one more. I'm trusting what you say about this being inadequate for most inverts, although the Foster & Smith book describes the 10000K as being high intensity and ideal for reef setups and I was under the impression that Actinic blue lamps were able to penetrate deeper than non-blue light. Are my clean up crew going to require higher lighting levels than this? Can I add a tube for any advantage?
Ich can be tricky to diagnose, it sounds easy enough but debris stuck on the fishes skin will look like it. It will be easy to spot on the clown though - looks like sugar 1mm across.
Yeah, the diatom rate will drop off. they require silicates to build a skeleton, and once they've exhausted the supply they can't exist anymore. You get silicates from silicate ions dissolved into tapwater by the way, not from quartz based sands which is near insoluble SiO2.
The 10K may or may not be high intensity, but somewhere on the packet it will give a count of lumens which will be ok for loking at things but not photosynthesizing which requires there to be enough intnesity for lots of light to 'punch' through to symbiotic algae in the flesh of photosynthetic orgs. Over a 90 deep (I don't how deep that is) I don't think 3 fluor tubes will do it for much except you can try mushrooms. The presence of actinic tubes is moot - in terms of PAR (Photosynthetically active radiation) you get much more energy from 6500 and 10K bulbs than actinics that are frankly there for aesthaetics. I run 1 actinic to 3 10K/14K, but only over a foot or so of water. Your clean up creq won't care but decide if you have ich before you get the clean up crew as hypo will kill all the snails for sure
Yeah, the diatom rate will drop off. they require silicates to build a skeleton, and once they've exhausted the supply they can't exist anymore. You get silicates from silicate ions dissolved into tapwater by the way, not from quartz based sands which is near insoluble SiO2.
The 10K may or may not be high intensity, but somewhere on the packet it will give a count of lumens which will be ok for loking at things but not photosynthesizing which requires there to be enough intnesity for lots of light to 'punch' through to symbiotic algae in the flesh of photosynthetic orgs. Over a 90 deep (I don't how deep that is) I don't think 3 fluor tubes will do it for much except you can try mushrooms. The presence of actinic tubes is moot - in terms of PAR (Photosynthetically active radiation) you get much more energy from 6500 and 10K bulbs than actinics that are frankly there for aesthaetics. I run 1 actinic to 3 10K/14K, but only over a foot or so of water. Your clean up creq won't care but decide if you have ich before you get the clean up crew as hypo will kill all the snails for sure
Just a little update.
The marks on the engineer gobys are certainly not ich. They seem to fade and the appear again just as quick. The fish appear healthy and active and I am not concerned. I checked the remaining goby at the LFS and he has similar marks. I'm sure it is nothing to worry about.
Regarding the diatom bloom - the problem is in hand. Initially I removed all rock (none live) that it was on and rinsed it in water removed from the system. A good percentage came off and was left in the system when I lifted each piece of rock out (seem they don't attach themselves well). Since then, using a spare powerhead to blow the diatoms from the tank surfaces seems to have worked quite well, coupled with frequesnt rinses of the sponges in my cannister filter. Diatom growth is definatly reducing and I put this down to using RO water in water changes. Wasn't aware that I should dump the water in my Fluval when I clean the sponges. That water was filthy and losing it has given me crystal clear water.
The snails and hermits are not having as big of an impact as I would have liked, but this is probably due to the low numbers. You can certainly see where they have recently been. I found 1 snail dead (had white slime near his hole and when this was scraped back it smelt real bad). Other snails appear not to have moved recently. Must check them for life.
My recent addition, a large green brittle star is awesome. Very fast moving when he senses food and he's doing a great job of keping th diatoms back. A very intersting animal.
I think thats about it for now. Next acqisitions will be more snails, more hermits, and a shoal for company for the lonely green chromis - all the while reading up mushrooms and keeping an ee out for live rock.
The marks on the engineer gobys are certainly not ich. They seem to fade and the appear again just as quick. The fish appear healthy and active and I am not concerned. I checked the remaining goby at the LFS and he has similar marks. I'm sure it is nothing to worry about.
Regarding the diatom bloom - the problem is in hand. Initially I removed all rock (none live) that it was on and rinsed it in water removed from the system. A good percentage came off and was left in the system when I lifted each piece of rock out (seem they don't attach themselves well). Since then, using a spare powerhead to blow the diatoms from the tank surfaces seems to have worked quite well, coupled with frequesnt rinses of the sponges in my cannister filter. Diatom growth is definatly reducing and I put this down to using RO water in water changes. Wasn't aware that I should dump the water in my Fluval when I clean the sponges. That water was filthy and losing it has given me crystal clear water.
The snails and hermits are not having as big of an impact as I would have liked, but this is probably due to the low numbers. You can certainly see where they have recently been. I found 1 snail dead (had white slime near his hole and when this was scraped back it smelt real bad). Other snails appear not to have moved recently. Must check them for life.
My recent addition, a large green brittle star is awesome. Very fast moving when he senses food and he's doing a great job of keping th diatoms back. A very intersting animal.
I think thats about it for now. Next acqisitions will be more snails, more hermits, and a shoal for company for the lonely green chromis - all the while reading up mushrooms and keeping an ee out for live rock.
I assume I'm right in saying that conducting water changes with distilled water will slowly erradicate the problemQUOTE said:
not distilled water,,, but RO water
but im really happy your tank has turned around,,, i liked the contents thru this post and learned alot myself. i was taught old school and broke my first tank in by fish only, (damsels) lost quite a few too, (camaro,, you probably remember me complaining thru this one,, lol) and it seemed it took alot longer than my 2nd tank with which i did live rock to cycle!
but im really happy your tank has turned around,,,
i liked the contents thru this post and learned alot myself. i was taught old school and broke my first tank in by fish only, (damsels) lost quite a few too, (camaro,, you probably remember me complaining thru this one,, lol) and it seemed it took alot longer than my 2nd tank with which i did live rock to cycle!
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Thanks Tammie. I am inexperienced with salt but I'm doing a lot of web reading trying to try and change that. I thought the DI in RO/DI meant distilled. I learn now that it is De-Ionised or something, so thanks for that. *thumbsups It turns out I have a cheap supply of reverse osmosis water nearby so that is what I'm now using anyway.
I can't wait to get some liverock (Yamaha - have you decided to nuke your tank yet? ) My LFS has encouraged me to come in tomorrow when they get a delivery of LR. They said they would hook me up with some decent rubble, so fingers crossed.
I can't wait to get some liverock (Yamaha - have you decided to nuke your tank yet?
) My LFS has encouraged me to come in tomorrow when they get a delivery of LR. They said they would hook me up with some decent rubble, so fingers crossed.
Glad to hear your keeping your water salty Yamaha, and that you're getting that hair algae under control.
I'll be going to The Pet Shoppe on Gear in Turlock. They're don't have much and are overpriced, but they seem to know what they are talking about, and the little stores seem to have better quality livestock.
I don't think I'd buy anything from either Pet Extreme or Tropical Haven, as I don't have the facilities to quaranteen yet (keeps head down) and their livestock always look a little on the ropey side....although so saying, my engineer gobies came from pet extreme and appear healthy and happy.
I'll be going to The Pet Shoppe on Gear in Turlock. They're don't have much and are overpriced, but they seem to know what they are talking about, and the little stores seem to have better quality livestock.
I don't think I'd buy anything from either Pet Extreme or Tropical Haven, as I don't have the facilities to quaranteen yet (keeps head down) and their livestock always look a little on the ropey side....although so saying, my engineer gobies came from pet extreme and appear healthy and happy.