Cycling

[skjl47]

Plants do not produce ammonia as a waste product, unless it is decaying.

Hello; A brief search found some sites that approached the question of plants producing ammonia. The first link is the simplest to follow. It does support your view that plants release ammonia during decay. This link seems to characterize the shedding of leaves as a type of plant excretion. There is ammonia involved in plant respiration but plants apparently have an involved process of dealing with it and do not excrete it quickly and directly in the manner of animals.
The practical effect, within the scope of cycling an aquarium, appears to be that plants indeed do not have a short term influence on the production of beneficial bacteria. I stand corrected

Metabolic waste - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Enzyme redundancy and the importance of 2

 

[Sky Diamond]

If you once get a tank established then it will be much easier to set up a second as there will be a rich source of bb in the established tank. I have not had to set up a tank from scratch for a very long time.

This tank I'm using has been setup at least twice, both times for a very long time.

I believe you already have some fish in the tank. It may be worth considering not adding any more fish until the colonies of bb have shown to be adequate enough to remove the ammonia. In this, the suggested use of a water test kit is sound advice.

The tank I have going with fish in it is not cycled but I don't plan on cycling it as I'm setting up this 34 litre tank to put them into. That's the tank I'm going to cycle.

At some point the tank will be cycled/established. Then you can add a few fish at a time.
Why a few at a time? Every time you add more fish or feed too much the ammonia load increases. It takes the bb a while to increase in population to handle the extra ammonia. In a cycled tank there are enough bb colonies for this to happen more quickly than in a newly set up tank.

As you have already witnessed there are differing opinions about how to run a tank. Some tend to push their point of view very strongly. I do not know how a person with little experience can know which advice is sound. One thing is fairly certain and that is that fish shop employees are very prone to give poor advice.

I'm not actually new to fish keeping, I'm new to cycling thanks to pet shops saying it takes a week for the tank to cycle just by leaving it with a filter going. So just put ammonia into the water and let some fish food rot?

 

[skjl47]

I would like to know the source of information you have, skjl47, that shows that plants produce any source of nitrogen as a waste product of growth.

The biology and ecology education I have taken in college states that organic nitrogen compounds are produce by animals as waste and by bacteria (and fungus) in the decaying process of animal or plant biomass.

This link is helpful to understand the nitrogen cycle of the environment in general.

Nitrogen Cycling: Manure in the Mix « Terrain for Schools Curriculum Guide, Fall 2005 « Ecology Center

Hello; Some decades ago I to took some botany classes in pursuit of biology degrees. Memory has left the view that during the dark phase plant cells function much like animal cells. My take has been that plants use the sugars they produce for growth and metabolism in a manner similar to that of all living things and that this yields by products.
The links in my previous post are the first additional source I have been able to come up with on short notice.

 

[exhumed07]

i never said to just put filter media in and call it good, earlier in the post i mentioned putting fish into the tank to produce the ammonia and organic waste to create the nitrites. and as for my "sniff" test i'm not smelling for ammonia. i'm just smelling for more then a humid water smell. if it has any other kinda odor it's time for a water change. thats how i check my water and as i said it works for me as even my baby fish can handle it just fine as well as snails which are very sensative to water quality. I'm not saying my water quality testing is ideal but it works for me and i have good success with it.

 

[skjl47]

This tank I'm using has been setup at least twice, both times for a very long time.



The tank I have going with fish in it is not cycled but I don't plan on cycling it as I'm setting up this 34 litre tank to put them into. That's the tank I'm going to cycle.



I'm not actually new to fish keeping, I'm new to cycling thanks to pet shops saying it takes a week for the tank to cycle just by leaving it with a filter going. So just put ammonia into the water and let some fish food rot?

Hello; Adding bottled ammonia or allowing fish food to rot is one way in a tank without any fish. It is called a "fishless cycle". The ammonia from a bottle, rotting fish food or rotting chunk of shrimp become the source of ammonia to feed the bb. The reports are that after some weeks the bb will populate to the point of being numerous enough to consume this ammonia source and the water readings for ammonia will get to zero. Then the tank has a good population of bb and fish can be safely added.

The tank you have with fish in it is going thru the process of growing bb. I think it is called a "fish in cycle". Many do not like to start a tank with fish in this way as the ammonia tends to build up in the water and they feel that the fish suffer. Until the bb develop to the point of being able to convert all the ammonia the fish are exposed to the toxic effects. The fish themselves are the source of ammonia. If you do water changes often enough the harm to the fish is reduced. In any case, I believe that it is common for many of the fish used this way to die or at least be damaged.
One way to reduce the suffering is to start with very few fish and give the process time to mature before adding more fish only a very few at a time. It is often reported to take as much as six weeks for the cycle process to mature. The water testing is how you know.

If you have a fully cycled tank some material from that tank, such as filter media, sand or such, can be placed in the new tank. That material will be loaded with bb and will seed the new setup. If I have been reading the posts correctly you do not have a mature cycled tank yet so this method is not available to you.

So, Yes you can rot some fish food or add bottled ammonia (you will have to keep doing this every day or few) in the empty tank and in several weeks it will likely be ready for the fish.

The current issue seems to be that you already have fish in a tank and that tank is not mature/cycled? Test for ammonia. If the tank has ammonia then the fish are being affected. It is my understanding that frequent water changes help to keep the fish alive and healthier. The process is started and ongoing in that tank now.

 

[OrangeCones]

As for the comment about plant cells functioning like animal cells in 'the dark phase,' I can only guess that this means in an environment that has insufficient light for photosynthesis. Plants respire 24/7, just as animals do, meaning that they take in oxygen and produce carbon dioxide as a waste (in light and dark phases). If there is enough light for photosynthesis, they can take in carbon dioxide and produce oxgen as a waste.

I stand behind my education that plants do not produce a nitrogen compound as part of growth or a waste by-product. Bacteria and some fungus species can take plant biomass and break it down during the decaying process to produce organic nitrogen. The plant itself does not PRODUCE the nitrogen, but the bacteria/fungus does, with the dead plant as its 'food source.'

Thyra, I thought that your intention with this thread was to help folks new to fishkeeping (or those that have not be successful in keeping fish healthy) was a good one. When fish die needlessly due to not understanding what it means to 'cycle' a tank, it is something that I (and I'm sure others) hate to see and try to prevent.

I personally don't need to test the water in my aquarium for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but that is only because I have a huge plant 'jungle' under medium-high light. I have to ADD a source of nitrogen (either by adding nitrate fertilzer or overfeeding my fish to allow some food to decay) most weeks. The plants visually tell me when they are running out of nitrogen as it show as a deficiency in their growth. I also must dose for phosphate, and the plants show this as a deficiency in their growth even quicker than nitrogen.

However, the 'anti-test kit' comments have spoiled it for me, so I am not posting here again.

 

[Sky Diamond]

The tank you have with fish in it is going thru the process of growing bb. I think it is called a "fish in cycle". Many do not like to start a tank with fish in this way as the ammonia tends to build up in the water and they feel that the fish suffer. Until the bb develop to the point of being able to convert all the ammonia the fish are exposed to the toxic effects. The fish themselves are the source of ammonia. If you do water changes often enough the harm to the fish is reduced. In any case, I believe that it is common for many of the fish used this way to die or at least be damaged.
One way to reduce the suffering is to start with very few fish and give the process time to mature before adding more fish only a very few at a time. It is often reported to take as much as six weeks for the cycle process to mature. The water testing is how you know.

I did have ammonia in a tank a few weeks ago, with a reading of 8 but got it down to 0 in a few days. I've been keeping an eye on it since.

At what point is it safe to add the fish to a cycled tank?

The current issue seems to be that you already have fish in a tank and that tank is not mature/cycled? Test for ammonia. If the tank has ammonia then the fish are being affected. It is my understanding that frequent water changes help to keep the fish alive and healthier. The process is started and ongoing in that tank now.

Right now, I'm changing the water every second to third day and is currently fine. Is is safe to add water plants to a tank being cycled?

Thyra, I thought that your intention with this thread was to help folks new to fishkeeping (or those that have not be successful in keeping fish healthy) was a good one. When fish die needlessly due to not understanding what it means to 'cycle' a tank, it is something that I (and I'm sure others) hate to see and try to prevent.

That's exactly what I am trying to do now after the two fighters that died. I've never had any issues in the past though, which is what confuses me the most.

I personally don't need to test the water in my aquarium for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but that is only because I have a huge plant 'jungle' under medium-high light. I have to ADD a source of nitrogen (either by adding nitrate fertilzer or overfeeding my fish to allow some food to decay) most weeks. The plants visually tell me when they are running out of nitrogen as it show as a deficiency in their growth. I also must dose for phosphate, and the plants show this as a deficiency in their growth even quicker than nitrogen.

I've seen plant food at my pet shop, is it okay to use on all fish, loaches and snails?

 

[skjl47]

As for the comment about plant cells functioning like animal cells in 'the dark phase,' I can only guess that this means in an environment that has insufficient light for photosynthesis. Plants respire 24/7, just as animals do, meaning that they take in oxygen and produce carbon dioxide as a waste (in light and dark phases). If there is enough light for photosynthesis, they can take in carbon dioxide and produce oxgen as a waste.

I stand behind my education that plants do not produce a nitrogen compound as part of growth or a waste by-product. Bacteria and some fungus species can take plant biomass and break it down during the decaying process to produce organic nitrogen. The plant itself does not PRODUCE the nitrogen, but the bacteria/fungus does, with the dead plant as its 'food source.'

Thyra, I thought that your intention with this thread was to help folks new to fishkeeping (or those that have not be successful in keeping fish healthy) was a good one. When fish die needlessly due to not understanding what it means to 'cycle' a tank, it is something that I (and I'm sure others) hate to see and try to prevent.

I personally don't need to test the water in my aquarium for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, but that is only because I have a huge plant 'jungle' under medium-high light. I have to ADD a source of nitrogen (either by adding nitrate fertilzer or overfeeding my fish to allow some food to decay) most weeks. The plants visually tell me when they are running out of nitrogen as it show as a deficiency in their growth. I also must dose for phosphate, and the plants show this as a deficiency in their growth even quicker than nitrogen.

However, the 'anti-test kit' comments have spoiled it for me, so I am not posting here again.

Hello; yes that is my understanding as well. Plant cells respire all the time and only undergo photosynthesis during conditions that include the presence of light. I also seem to recall that growth is more intense, at least in some plants, during the time they spend in the dark. I suppose it should have been more correctly worded by me as that some plants undergo more respiration and growth during the dark.
I will concede the point again. Plants do not process and eliminate the wastes produced during cellular processes the same way as animals and decay organisms and thus do not affect the ammonia levels in a tank directly.

To the OP. I regret the part my comment played in temporarily getting the thread on a side track.

 

[Thyra]

Wow! This has gotten way too complicated. Sky, with a little research on either this site or "Google" you could find recipes for cycling a tank. If you chose to use ammonia - be careful - it needs to be PURE and most of it has surfactant and also lemon scent. I was not able to find pure ammonia in my area. I am concerned about your testing methods is you can go from 8ppm on day to zero the next and you don't say what you did to accomplish this. You need an accurate way to test the water. The API freshwater (FW) liquid test kit is highly recommended. That 34L tank is way too small for the number of fish you want to put in it so you will continue to have problems unless you change your plans because the ammonia build up will be too fast. I will tell you what I would do: I would put three small fish like platies in it - once you have the test kit - and then test the water every day and also do a 50% water change daily until your test shows zero ammonia and nitrite and at least 5ppm nitrates. Then you could slack off a bit with the water changes to maybe 25% twice a week but because of the size of the tank you're going to have to test at least every other day. There are other smallish fish you could keep but you will never be able to keep fish like angels, red tail sharks, gouramis or some of the others you have mentioned in that tank. One other thing I thought of is, have you tested your water out of the tap for nitrates? You are going to need a base line and because of where you are getting your water it could already have some nitrates in it.

One of the problems is you are getting advice from a lot of people who probably haven't cycled a tank from scratch in many years. I cycled my first tank three years ago and kept notes - it was a 16 gallon tank. I used the method above that I described and it took just slightly less than 3 weeks with the daily testing and water changes. This worked for me. A tank as small as 34L will take a lot of continues up keep to keep the parameters healthy for you fish even if you only marginally over stock it.

 

[skjl47]

Right now, I'm changing the water every second to third day and is currently fine. Is is safe to add water plants to a tank being cycled?


I've seen plant food at my pet shop, is it okay to use on all fish, loaches and snails?[/QUOTE]

Hello; I usually add plants to a fresh setup right away. My take is that it is OK to add plants to an uncycled tank. I also "suspect" that an additional benefit from adding live plants is that they should have some colonies of bb on their surfaces as they usually have come from a mature tank. This should help to seed the bb in the new tank. I do not know of all possible ways plants are kept so it may be possible that this is not always so.

I have used many commercially available plant foods and have not experienced problems with fish, snails and such. There are at least two types, liquid and solid. The liquid adds nutrients to the water column which is useful for the many aquatic plants that pull nutrients from the water. The solid forms likely will eventually get into the water column, but I use them mainly for the plants that are root feeders. Amazon sword plants do much better when nutrients are put into the substrate near the roots. As with everything else there are likely to be complicating details so read the labels and do some research. I have used plant tabs for root feeders and liquid PLANT GRO by NUTRAFIN. There are other brands.
Sorry to bring up cycling again, but one benefit of the process is that some fish waste is altered into compounds that plants can use as nutrients.

I also have tried some other ways to fertilize the root feeders. A current thing with some kinks still to be worked out is a way to make potting soil plugs. I soak some potting soil until saturated and then pack it into empty 35 mm film containers. It is a bit early to tell how it will work out as I have only been doing it for about 8 months. The sword plants are growing well and so far no serious negative outcomes. The biggest problems so far is getting the frozen plugs out of the container and some shedding of the soil into the water as I place the plug into the substrate.

 

[exhumed07]

skj, u are taking potting soil and freezing it and using that as a fert? never heard of doing that. i would think that could foul up the water pretty bad if you have fish that stir up the substrate. although i am rather intriged, i curently am experimenting with plants myself. I tried years ago but found out cichlids and plants do not get along lol but now have a 20 gallon tropical and trying it again. plants are not doing well though and not sure y.

back on topic i think adding plants at the begining of the cycle would realy help as they will absorb alot of the nitrates nitrites and ammonia and make the cycle stretch out longer but be much much less dramatic.

 

[skjl47]

skj, u are taking potting soil and freezing it and using that as a fert? never heard of doing that. i would think that could foul up the water pretty bad if you have fish that stir up the substrate. although i am rather intriged, i curently am experimenting with plants myself. I tried years ago but found out cichlids and plants do not get along lol but now have a 20 gallon tropical and trying it again. plants are not doing well though and not sure y.

back on topic i think adding plants at the begining of the cycle would realy help as they will absorb alot of the nitrates nitrites and ammonia and make the cycle stretch out longer but be much much less dramatic.

Hello; I freeze the plugs of wet soil to help avoid the mess. I try to get the frozen plugs buried quickly near the roots of the amazon swords to avoid the soil getting loose in the water. Some does get away, but not much. This is a problem not solved yet, but I have a couple of ideas to try eventually.
I do not have any digging fish in the tanks now, so that is not a problem for me. I too discovered that some ciclids and plants do not mix.

I like plants anyway but also tend to feel they are useful in a tank. I "suspect" that plants do not take ammonia/ammonium or nitrites in directly but eventually a second kind of bacteria (nitrobacter) populates the tank and converts the nitrites to a form that the plants can use as a nutrient. I have a site bookmarked about this and will post a link.

 

[skjl47]

hello; here is the link I spoke of

The Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle

 

[exhumed07]

maybe some kind of netting would work? i have seen at craft stores like a super thin cotton mesh. i would think that would work to hold it all together and since the cotton is natural and so thin it would rot away pretty quickly and since it's a mesh the roots would be able to get into the soil. an idea to kick around at least. right now i have sand and gravel mixed and the plants are directly into that and i am using root tabs. i got anacris and one other plant. they all did good but then they seemed to rot out at the roots and then go floating about the tank. also the leaves are falling off. i have a dual t5 setup with one 10,000k daylight and one plant bulb in it. the friend i got the plants from has a 10 gallon full of guppies and plants and the plants are going nuts. i have a 20 gallon the same type of setup and i can't keep them alive lol

 

[skjl47]

skj, u are taking potting soil and freezing it and using that as a fert? never heard of doing that. i would think that could foul up the water pretty bad if you have fish that stir up the substrate. although i am rather intriged, i curently am experimenting with plants myself. I tried years ago but found out cichlids and plants do not get along lol but now have a 20 gallon tropical and trying it again. plants are not doing well though and not sure y.

back on topic i think adding plants at the begining of the cycle would realy help as they will absorb alot of the nitrates nitrites and ammonia and make the cycle stretch out longer but be much much less dramatic.

Hello; I have been curious about an aspect of cycling and live plants. (Thyra-please let me know if this fits in your thread. I will start a new thread if you think it best.)
I have read from time to time a statement that plants can absorb ammonia directly. This has been a puzzle in the sense that if this is case then we could add live plants to a tank with ammonia and the plants would absorb the ammonia. However we spend a lot of time dealing with the complex aspects of cycling to control the ammonia.
I did some web searching and reading. I found a lot of sites about cycling and the nitrogen cycle. Several mentioned that plants can absorb ammonia but gave little or no further information. Nearly all went into the cycling process in some detail. I found one that did have some additional comments and the link to it follows.

The Effect of Ammonia on Aquatic Plants | Garden Guides

The author mentions that aquatic plants can absorb ammonia directly from water but also says that this is not the way they usually do so. So far this is the best reference I have found. My memory from long ago botany classes had raised questions but were not clear enough. I hope to continue this investigation and will welcome comments.

 

[Thyra]

Actually most of this could go on the "Dirt Tank" Thread. I was hoping to start a thread just for beginner questions about cycling because so many don't seem to have a clue. Perhaps I should restart another thread and see if we can keep it on that theme? I think we "oldsters" have an obligation to help the newbies as much as they will allow. lol

 

[exhumed07]

sorry thyra, didn't mean to get off topic on this thread. sometimes it happens though but i realy didn't mean to get off topic.

 

[Thyra]

Yup! I know how that goes - done it myself because I enjoy the interaction with everyone.

 

[exhumed07]

that and someone brings up a topic that is related and it gets interest and it grows from there and u go from a topic like cycling to what kinda coral u have in a salt tank lol. it's happened to alot of my posts.