Fish recommendations for 120g community

[namukoby]

I'd like some help in determining what fish we can put together in our community tank.

First, some background info (so you don't need to ask me later) We have a (used) 120g (48" x 24" x 24") tank, which came with a single bulb, fluorescent light, (too weak for live plants), a 30" "bubble wall" and a Filstar XP3 canister filter.

It is now cycling, with 13 pristella tetras. For the last 10 days there has been a constant level of 1 ppm ammonia, but no "spike" and no nitrites or nitrates yet, either. The fish have only been in there for 3 weeks.

tap water ph is 7.8 (which goes up to 8.0 after sitting for a day)
kh is 13 german degrees
gh is at 9

Here is what we were thinking:
13 pristellas
6-8 angel fish (we'd get them small - max 1.5" - and watch them grow)
6-8 larger rainbowfish - up to 5 inches each (3-4 each of 2 different species) - again, start small, and watch them grow
2-3 smaller rainbowfish - maybe lemon? (they aren't dyed, are they?)
8-10 catfish - what is best - otos, or corys? or a small school of each?
1 pleco (smaller one)

We also liked the dwarf gouramis - maybe instead of some of the rainbowfish?

Thanks for any input!

 

[foty89]

The first thing I would recommend is that you add a marineland bio-wheel pro 60 to your filter. This will greatly enhance your biological filtration. Many people with a tank the size of yours would run two filters on it. On my 120 gallon, I am running two Emperor 400 filters.

As for the fish list you have, it looks like too big a list to me. You did not give specifics on the types of rainbows and catfish you are looking at, but just going by the baseline inch of fish per gallon rule, you would eventually be far past that with the list that you have now.

And that rule does not even take in to account the size of the fish other than length. Angels and rainbows are not narrow and slender fish.

My best advice to you is to spend some time on the fish descriptions section of this page, as well as other sites to get a better idea of the grown size of the fish you are looking at to better gauge how many you can have. This will also help you make sure that each fish type is compatible with each other and that they have generally the same water requirements.

The 120 gallon tank is a great size tank to have, you will be the envy of many a fish keeper here once you have it all setup and going.

 

[dss2004]

I don't think that is really overstocked. I believe that it is definitely a heavy stock but not insanely over. The nice thing is that it is a big tank and there is a lot of room to have fish. I would second foty89 on getting another filter. On a tank that large I would devote a filter to bio-filtration. I assume you will be performing consistent water changes? If so I think you should be fine. I would definitely think about getting another filter to go on that bad boy.

 

[foty89]

I don't think that is really overstocked. I believe that it is definitely a heavy stock but not insanely over. The nice thing is that it is a big tank and there is a lot of room to have fish. I would second foty89 on getting another filter. On a tank that large I would devote a filter to bio-filtration. I assume you will be performing consistent water changes? If so I think you should be fine. I would definitely think about getting another filter to go on that bad boy.

Ideally, I would recommend a second filstar XP3 filter and two marineland bio-wheel pro 60's. That would easily handle that fish load, but you would still need to make sure the fish would not be overcrowded.

 

[FroggyFox]

Another filter or not aside...here's my input on your stock list.

I've never heard of a lemon rainbowfish...do you mean lemon tetras? If you mean lemon tetras then no, they're not dyed and I've heard a lot of people who really like them. There are celebes rainbowfish that are kind of a yellow color, they're gorgeous. I dont have any rainbowfish, but I've done some reading on them. I've heard that its good to keep them in large groups, and that you need to be careful which ones you put together in a tank because they will cross-breed.

Usually if you pick a schooling fish like a rainbowfish its good to keep at least 5 or 6 of them, especially in a tank your size. I think it would look awesome to have some large schools of smallish fish.

On your corys...a school of 6+ of them would be awesome. They're so much fun to watch. You have enough floor space in your tank that they shouldn't get in the way of whichever pleco you choose. I would suggest getting a small army of ottos (say at least 3) to eat the brown algae that your pleco probably wont get to.

SO with your 13 pristellas, 5 angelfish, pleco, 6 cories, 3 ottos...that would leave about 25-30 "inches" of fish left to divide up between a school of fish or two.

 

[namukoby]

Thanks for the input.

We have a Magnum 350 canister filter that friends had lying around - it was used on a tank for wintering pond fish, but they moved, and no longer have a pond . . . . Don't know if it works, but would that work for additional filtration? Also, why would a bio-wheel be so helpful? (sorry if this is a dumb question - I searched, but can't find any good info on this . . .)

On that fish list, I was more concerned about temperament than stocking issues. I like the article here about stocking, and we'll adjust the numbers accordingly - I prefer to keep it lightly stocked:
http://www.myfishtank.net/articles/howmanyfish.php

In the reading I've done, I've found a lot of conflicting advice about compatibility issues and agressiveness. That is my main concern about choosing these fish. I was hoping that some of you experienced aquarists could clear up some of the confusion.

Aren't angels aggressive in groups of 4 or less? I've read in 2 or 3 places that they are best in groups of at least 6, and that 8 is better. It also seems that angels might not be the best tank mates for tetras, as the angels might see the tetras as food - but that the bigger tetras (like pristellas) aren't as much of a problem, especially if the angels are raised with the tetras.

I can't find any info at all on the compatability of rainbowfish with angels - is it just not done, or am I looking in the wrong place? With the lack of color in the angels and pristellas, some colorful fish like rainbowfish or gouramis would be nice - so they could complement each other. I do, however want to have enough of each species to 'keep them happy'.

Last question - for now - (I promise) At the LFS, we were told that we should have at least 8 bottom feeders for the size of tank that we have - which is why I have that in the list (but I'm not sure we should trust them . . . . ) Is this true? If so, we'd probably just go with whatever is available between otos or cory catfish (or cheapest because this is starting to get out of hand - and we have van repairs to think of too . . . *crazysmil )

Oh - and yes, we would do regular water changes, and testing (I'm teaching the kids to do them ) - probably smaller amounts (like 10%) more often. A 30 gallon (25%) water change at one time is just a bit overwhelming - at least unit we get a python system.

Thanks again.

 

[namukoby]

I've never heard of a lemon rainbowfish...do you mean lemon tetras? If you mean lemon tetras then no, they're not dyed and I've heard a lot of people who really like them.

Sorry - I mean yellow rainbowfish - (my 5 yr old said they look like lemons, and she's been calling them 'lemon fish' )

Usually if you pick a schooling fish like a rainbowfish its good to keep at least 5 or 6 of them, especially in a tank your size. I think it would look awesome to have some large schools of smallish fish.

I'd love to have several 'happy' schools of fish rather than sad specimens.

SO with your 13 pristellas, 5 angelfish, pleco, 6 cories, 3 ottos...that would leave about 25-30 "inches" of fish left to divide up between a school of fish or two.

Thank-you. Maybe I can convince the kids to go with smaller fish, and then they can have more *thumbsup2

 

[FroggyFox]

Getting a python would be a good idea with such a large tank. Doing small water changes will help, but I'd think that at least once a month or so you'd want to do at least a 30 or 40 percent if you are regularly doing less.

Rainbowfish and angels. I'm not sure. Rainbowfish are usually very peaceful and keep to themselves. Angels are kind of the same way, depends on the specific fish though. I dont think its in small groups...I've always heard/read that if you keep one or 3 or an odd numbered group of more than 3 you should be fine. This is why I suggested 5. Plus, if you want room for more of those little fish (not TOO little because full grown angels will eat tiny fish like neons) then cutting down on the large fish will do that. I count 8-10 inches per Angel...because they get pretty big (tall). I wouldn't think you would have a HUGE problem with putting rainbowfish in with them...but at the same time rainbowfish are WAY more expensive than your usual community fish. Around here I can't even find them! Sometimes I'll see turqouoise rainbowfish...and one store stocked some celebes and threadfin for awhile...but aside from them I never see any. The other thing you hit on the head earlier is I have heard that if you introduce all of the angels to the tank at about the same age and size that you'll have a better chance of them growing up together peacefully, as opposed to putting in one, then waiting a few months and adding two more and then the big one will pick on the small ones.

Best advice: HEAR what the pet store suggests, but don't blindly follow. A "bottom feeder" varies WILDLY in size, temprament and function in your tank. From the quiet, calm tiny 2 inch Otto who eats mostly brown algae...to the cute, crazy cory that likes to be with a group of their kind, eats 'bottom feeder' stuff like leftover food and shrimp pellets and ranges in adult size from 1 to 4+ inches...to a common pleco who gets HUGE and eats mainly algae and fiberous foods, less algae as it gets older, is noctournal etc. SO How can the pet store say "you need such and such number of bottom feeders"?? It just doesnt make sense. The suggestion of a pleco (to eat green algae) a few ottos (to eat brown algae) and some cories (because they're cute and will help clean up any 'leftovers') is kind of a 'well rounded' group of bottom feeders for you. I dont think many bottom feeders are really aggressive or cause problems...but some can be grumpy and eat smaller fish at night heh

No matter what you're researching (especially with fish) you'll find conflicting theories and opinions on what is "correct" or what "works"...some of it is doing your research, some of it is using common sense...and some of it is pure "just do it". The fish you mentioned...none of them are notorious fin nippers or bullies (except maybe the angelfish from time to time who have their own little personalities) so I think you're probably safe. Again...thats MY opinon to throw into your findings

You might think about not adding your algae eaters (otto and pleco) until you actually start having some algae for them to munch on...and definitely after your cycle is finished.

 

[J'sRamAir]

Well to my knowledge, there isn't any rainbowfish named yellow rainbowfish. Now there are a couple different types of rainbowfish that are yellow or a yellowish color. I know that my female boesmanis are yellow most of the time. Here is a site with good pics on info on rainbowfish: http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/

In my limited experience with rainbowfish they seem to be just fine in smaller groups...maybe 5-6 of one type or a total of 5-6 of two different types. Of course, it's always better to have larger groups and you certainly have the tank space for a large group (10 or so). The good thing about rainbowfish is that all types get along well with each other...so you can mix and match until you have a good sized school. I have read that rainbowfish tend to crossbreed with other rainbows but I haven't seen any of mine 'getting friendly' with other types. So far they seem to stick to their own kind. Out of the four different types that I have my personal favorite is the New Guinea (Red) rainbowfish. They're more expensive than other rainbows but they get to be the 2nd largest and seem to be more intelligent than my others.

I think you should mix some rainbows and some angels together to see what happens. The rainbows should be the quickest fish in the tank so that should keep them out of harms way (most of the time) if there is to be any trouble.

 

[foty89]

Well, I would be glad to explain how the bio wheel helps with biological filtration in you tank. However, it is a lot of typing, so I will take a shortcut here and cut and paste from another forum that I go to. The link to the page where this originally appears is:


Bio-wheel filtration

Posted by Great Lakes
Posted: Mar 21 2003, 11:30 AM

After a little reading on filtration, I have come to the conclusion that the new bio wheel craze has much merit. I know folks in the UK are less aware of this type of filtration than some members in the States. This might be due to the fact that Marineland seems to be pioneering this type of filtration. I am going to plageurize their work a bit to save me some typing...cause I am lazy..

There are three stages of filtration;

1) Mechanical filtration of water is done by passing the water through a screen, or a thin piece of sponge, or through a floss material, all of which remove pieces of debris from the water

(2) Chemical filtration of water is done by passing the water through small pieces of carbon or zeolite, which is a natural mineral. The carbon or zeolite remove molecules such as ammonia from the water.

(3) Biological filtration of water is done by certain types of bacteria that live on gravel, the surface of glass, ceramic ornaments, plastic plants, bio-balls, floss, or best of all on BIO-Wheels.


These bacteria are often called beneficial bacteria in contrast to the pathogenic or harmful bacteria that cause diseases. The beneficial bacteria in biological filters digest waste in the water by combining the waste that is dissolved in the water with oxygen that is also dissolved in the water.

So your typical filter would contain all three. A type of floss, the carbon media found inside the filter pack, or canister, and the bacteria flourishing on it. Your gravel and other items in you system will also include this bacteria. But due to the water movement through the filter, it will have an enormous amount of this beneficial bacteria.

This bacteria needs oxygen to perform its task of converting Ammonia into nitrites then into nitrates. Here is a couple of equations that quite simply express how this is done.

Using the usual symbols for Ammonia NH3, Oxygen O2, Nitrite NO2¯, and Water H2O, the chemical reaction is written as

NH3 + O2 a NO2¯ + H2O + energy

Or equivalently as a chemical equation like this

4 NH3 + 7 O2 = 4 NO2¯ + 6 H2O + energy

Other kinds of beneficial bacteria combine the nitrite and oxygen, that are both dissolved in the water, to produce nitrate and more energy. Using the usual symbol for nitrate NO3¯, the chemical reaction is written as

NO2¯ + O2 a NO3¯ + energy

Or equivalently as an equation like this

2 NO2¯ + O2 = 2 NO3¯ + energy

This brings to the forefront just how important oxygen is to filtration process. Here is where the bio wheels make their bid for supremacy.

A biowheel is placed into the return flow to the tank. Picture a mill wheel with water cascading over it. This is how a biowheel performs. Its constant turning allows it to have a higher concentration of oxygen available for bacteria to do its job. Studies have shown that a typical tank has 7ppm of disolved O2. Whereas a bio wheel has upwards of 200,000 ppm of O2 available for converting waste!

Run out and get yours now...

 

[foty89]

As mentioned by others, you will certainly want to get a python gravel cleaner, but as you mentioned, a 120 gallon tank gets to be a tad bit expensive. So, I have another link for you, from another forum, different than the last, about how to make you own python for a fraction of the cost.

DIY Python

 

[namukoby]

This brings to the forefront just how important oxygen is to filtration process. Here is where the bio wheels make their bid for supremacy.

A biowheel is placed into the return flow to the tank. Picture a mill wheel with water cascading over it. This is how a biowheel performs. Its constant turning allows it to have a higher concentration of oxygen available for bacteria to do its job. Studies have shown that a typical tank has 7ppm of disolved O2. Whereas a bio wheel has upwards of 200,000 ppm of O2 available for converting waste!

Run out and get yours now...

Alright - another potentially dumb question . . .
I understand the whole biological filtration process - but what this seems to be saying is that the biowheel puts oxygen into the water when the water is returned to the tank, right? Then the filter intake sucks up the water with the higher O2 content, making the bio filter in the wheel more effective, because there is more O2 available. There isn't additional air in the actual filter - just what has been added to the water, caused by agitation when the H2O returns to the tank. Am I right so far?

If so, then why wouldn't airstones/bubble wall and an airpump, combined with a good bio filter work just as well? They increase the amount of O2 in the water, too.

 

[namukoby]

As mentioned by others, you will certainly want to get a python gravel cleaner, but as you mentioned, a 120 gallon tank gets to be a tad bit expensive. So, I have another link for you, from another forum, different than the last, about how to make you own python for a fraction of the cost.

DIY Python

Thank-you! This is great. My only problem now is that the only tap I can attach a waterbed drain to is my washing machine tap (which has no way to regulate temperature. All of the other spouts in the house (within 100 feet of the aquarium) are too 'decorative'. I'll figure something out, though.

 

[foty89]

Alright - another potentially dumb question . . .
I understand the whole biological filtration process - but what this seems to be saying is that the biowheel puts oxygen into the water when the water is returned to the tank, right? Then the filter intake sucks up the water with the higher O2 content, making the bio filter in the wheel more effective, because there is more O2 available. There isn't additional air in the actual filter - just what has been added to the water, caused by agitation when the H2O returns to the tank. Am I right so far?

If so, then why wouldn't airstones/bubble wall and an airpump, combined with a good bio filter work just as well? They increase the amount of O2 in the water, too.

The only dumb question is the one unasked.

It is not the oxygen in the water that makes it better. It is the surface area on the bio-wheel that does. What happens is there is a ton of surface area for bacteria to develop on. What makes this different is that it is a surface area that is constantly rotating in the water and out. So the bacteria are constantly getting wet, but just as constantly getting exposed to atmospheric oxygen. Atmospheric oxygen levels will always be much higher than that in water. That is why it works better.

 

[FroggyFox]

Read up on bio-wheels though...they're definitely not "necessary". Most filters have plenty of mechanical and biological filtration without the noisy bio-wheel.

 

[foty89]

Read up on bio-wheels though...they're definitely not "necessary". Most filters have plenty of mechanical and biological filtration without the noisy bio-wheel.

Perhaps, but there are a lot of reviews out there that say that they are excellent filters, among the best for the home hobbyist. Even on this site, there are many positive reviews of bio-wheel filters. As for the noisy part, that is really only a problem when the water level in the tank gets lower. Some of the bio-wheel filters do have a little bit of a drop for the water return, but this can be addressed by adding a piece of plexi to make the shot longer.

 

[namukoby]

Well to my knowledge, there isn't any rainbowfish named yellow rainbowfish. Now there are a couple different types of rainbowfish that are yellow or a yellowish color. I know that my female boesmanis are yellow most of the time. Here is a site with good pics on info on rainbowfish: http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/

Cool link!
I'm pretty sure they called it a Yellow rainbowfish. I've beem trying to find the picture again - I think it was at aquariumfish.net - but I can't get back to that site now. From the pictures on the site you linked to, it was probably a Melanotaenia herbertaxelrodi, except the line was much lighter (maybe the picture was of a jeuvenile fish?)

The only dumb question is the one unasked.

It is not the oxygen in the water that makes it better. It is the surface area on the bio-wheel that does. What happens is there is a ton of surface area for bacteria to develop on. What makes this different is that it is a surface area that is constantly rotating in the water and out. So the bacteria are constantly getting wet, but just as constantly getting exposed to atmospheric oxygen. Atmospheric oxygen levels will always be much higher than that in water. That is why it works better.

Makes sense. So, basically, the bacteria is healthier (more effective), so you shouldn't need as much bacteria to do the job. One more thing, then. Any biological filter still will only have enough bacteria to process the amount of ammonia and nitrites, etc. produced in the tank. Wouldn't another filter just have more bacteria?

 

[foty89]

So, basically, the bacteria is healthier (more effective), so you shouldn't need as much bacteria to do the job. One more thing, then. Any biological filter still will only have enough bacteria to process the amount of ammonia and nitrites, etc. produced in the tank. Wouldn't another filter just have more bacteria?

Well, sort of. You see, the bacteria are in a sense healthier, but the real reason that it works better is that there is all the surface area for them to colonize and use. So they can grow and reproduce better, so there are simply many times more of them than in a standard filter.

Again, canister filters are great for removing particulate matter, however the bio-wheel is the best for removing biological mater. So the ideal setup would be canister filters and bio-wheels.

Marineland makes a Hot Magnum that is this, however it is not very well reviewed by users. I would see if the second canister you have works, if so I would get the bio-wheel attachments for both and you will have no problems at all with filtration.

Maintenance on canisters is pretty straight forward and the bio-wheels are not very complicated either. The biggest thing you will have to do is clean out the spray bar every so often, because just like any spray bar, it can get clogged over time as mineral deposits build up. If this occurs, it will slow or stop the bio-wheel from spinning and your bacteria will die.

 

[FroggyFox]

Perhaps, but there are a lot of reviews out there that say that they are excellent filters, among the best for the home hobbyist. Even on this site, there are many positive reviews of bio-wheel filters. As for the noisy part, that is really only a problem when the water level in the tank gets lower. Some of the bio-wheel filters do have a little bit of a drop for the water return, but this can be addressed by adding a piece of plexi to make the shot longer.

I wasn't saying that they aren't good filters or that they wont get the job done...I was pointing out that there are people (myself included) who dont think that bio-wheels are God's gift to the fishkeeping industry and letting a new person know about OTHER options that are perhaps easier and just as effective.

YES namukoby you're right when you say that another filter will just have more bacteria or that it will "rise to the occasion". The only time a filter WONT work for your tank is if you try to make it do something its not designed for (like a normal UGF in a tank with a sand substrate, or a HOB filter rated for a 5G tank on a 55G tank) Which is why reading up on the different types and sizes of filters is a good thing.

 

[foty89]

I wasn't saying that they aren't good filters or that they wont get the job done...I was pointing out that there are people (myself included) who dont think that bio-wheels are God's gift to the fishkeeping industry and letting a new person know about OTHER options that are perhaps easier and just as effective.

Sorry if I came on a little strongly. The way you ended your post with the noisy comment seemed to indicate that you felt they were an inferior product. You are correct that there are many types of filters that can do the job well if matched to the tank.