Gold fish lying still at bottom and sometimes at an inclined position

[manojvaz]

I am a new bee to aquarium hobby. I bought two fantail goldfish one of which died two weeks ago. I jumped in quickly without getting to know of the basics. I had them in a bowl, which I know is a SIN by now. I now have a 20gallon aquarium in cycling process. In the beginning I used RO(Reverse Osmosis)water, both in the bowl and when I began cycling my new aquarium couple of weeks back. I went through the internet and various forums getting to know what nitrogen cycling is and the base requirement for goldfish. I have the goldfish in a fish bowl for the moment until the cycling is complete.

The last 5 days my goldie seems to lay still at the bottom and sometimes in an inclined position, at almost 70 degree angle. He occasionally swims. All fins are clamped. Isn't active at all. I added salt water assuming it could be a bacterial infection(One of my friend suggested). It didn't work. I keep changing the water in the bowl every alternate day with tap water which I house it in a bucket for 2 days for de-chlorination. I fed him today after 2.5 days. He did eat, 3 pellets
1.Is it a swim bladder infection?
2.Is it Ammonia poisoning?
3.Is it constipation or digestive disorder?
4.Could I feed him peas tomorrow to cure of his constipation(I read on the internet about pea and its goodness)
5.Since goldfish like to live in groups is it getting stressed out by being alone? Which species of goldfish is best mate to Fantail goldfish?
6.Do I need to maintain a steady water temperature?
7.What could I do restore its health and make it lively.




I did a 50% water change in the aquarium with tap water(seasoned for 2 days for de-chlorination) as I was suggested that RO water wouldn't have the essential natural minerals for the fish to thrive. With the aquarium in the middle of cycling;
1. Do I need to add a de-chlorinator medicine to properly dechlorinate?
2.Do I need to test for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate contents or do a 25% water change every 3 days to keep them in control irrespective of the levels
3.I was cycling with the goldies initially(for ammonia content) and when I lost one I put the other in bowl and added fish food to decompose into ammonia for the cyle, is that a reliable source of Ammonia?
4.Could I have Java Ferns and Sword Plants to keep Ammonia level in control
5.Is RO water good or tap water?

I have the aquarium at a place where sunlight can't enter.

Could some one please help me out on this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Rotaripsnoc]

Welcome to the forums !

Since the tank is still cycling, it's probably Ammonia \ Nitrite problems, you'll need to test these before much can be done to help.

I've recently began keeping fish again, and now I'm fighting to keep mine going while a tank cycles, I've documented much of my recent experience here. here.

The fish is likely listless due to high nitrites and stress.

We \ I need to know your water parameters.
Water temp:
Ammonia Levels:
Nitrite Levels:

Once those are given we can help out more.

 

[FishDad]

1.Is it a swim bladder infection? No, his boyency would be affected
2.Is it Ammonia poisoning? More than likely based on your situation
3.Is it constipation or digestive disorder? Not likely
4.Could I feed him peas tomorrow to cure of his constipation(I read on the internet about pea and its goodness) You could but likely won't help
5.Since goldfish like to live in groups is it getting stressed out by being alone? Which species of goldfish is best mate to Fantail goldfish? Honestly, he'll do best in a pond. He will out grow that tank very soon.
6.Do I need to maintain a steady water temperature? Not for goldfish
7.What could I do restore its health and make it lively. Respectfully, get it out of that tank. Alot of people make this mistake with GF. They are large, coldwater pond fish.




I did a 50% water change in the aquarium with tap water(seasoned for 2 days for de-chlorination) as I was suggested that RO water wouldn't have the essential natural minerals for the fish to thrive. With the aquarium in the middle of cycling;
1. Do I need to add a de-chlorinator medicine to properly dechlorinate? Yes, it will save you alot of trouble, imo Seachems Prime is the best. You don't need to 'season' the water.
2.Do I need to test for Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate contents or do a 25% water change every 3 days to keep them in control irrespective of the levels. Yes, you must have a test kit, API master kit is the best. Water changes should be done in response to water params. Then, once stable, on a regular basis. I prefer weekly.
3.I was cycling with the goldies initially(for ammonia content) and when I lost one I put the other in bowl and added fish food to decompose into ammonia for the cyle, is that a reliable source of Ammonia? Yes, pure ammonia would be more effective.
4.Could I have Java Ferns and Sword Plants to keep Ammonia level in control? Yes, but really won't make a big impact in cycling issues.
5.Is RO water good or tap water? Tap water is fine, just dechlorinate.

Hope this helps.

 

[manojvaz]

thank you very much for the reply Rotaripsnoc. I got to go to the pet store to get those test kits and hopefully by evening I would be able to let you know those parameters.

 

[exhumed07]

fishdad is on the ball. not sure i can add anymore except that a 20 gallon tank is bare MINIMUM for a goldfish. i would think about getting rid of the goldfish and getting some other smaller fish.

 

[manojvaz]

thank you Fish Dad for the valuable information

 

[FishDad]

thank you Fish Dad for the valuable information

Anytime. Welcome to the forum btw. There are lots of people here with valuable info to dispense. Don't hesitate to ask.

 

[manojvaz]

I was in the middle of writing the below while the web session expired. Here is the complete post.

thank you Fish Dad for the valuable information. I'd get the test kits and de-chlorinator tomorrow from the pet store and work on it.

FishDad and Rotaripsnoc, as you both have pointed out the toxic nature of the water causing the GF to be listless, would getting ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to the required levels make the GF normal? Do I feed him in this situation or put him to fast(lent days in progress ). He has some white spots on his body? What could be the cause

exhumed07, I had him in the bowl, however put him to the aquarium a while ago as I did a 50% water change yesterday. 3.I was cycling with the goldies initially(for ammonia content) and when I lost one I put the other in bowl and added fish food to decompose into ammonia for the cyle, is that a reliable source of Ammonia? -- FishDad's answer: Yes, pure ammonia would be more effective.

The GF is lying like dead and doesn't seem to move at all. It's more than worrying. I don't want to lose him

I have attached the photographs of the GF's state for more inspection. Await suggestions.


View attachment 11548 View attachment 11549 View attachment 11550 View attachment 11551 View attachment 11552 View attachment 11553

 

[Thyra]

It is true - goldfish need more room, but we all know of cases where a couple were kept in fish bowls for months to years. Those that managed it probably did frequent water changes. You may have gotten a couple of fish that were already sick and now it sounds like you could have ich. I am not being much help I know - I couldn't see your attachments either, but although goldfish are considered cold water fish, you need to be care of any sudden temp changes.

 

[manojvaz]

Thanks Thyra.

FishDad, Rotaripsnoc, Thyra, exhumed07
--Is there a cure to ich;medications if any? What is Prime? Is that a brand or a specific dechlorinator composition?

 

[FreshyFresh]

Yep, like said, goldfish are hardy buggers and I'm sure your treating them better than most are treated, but to diagnose problems, the first step is getting a water parameter test kit like an API master test kit.

I'm not sure if fantail goldfish get as big as comets, but a single comet can outgrow a 55gal tank given proper care. 2 fantails would probably be happy and healthy in a 20gal for awhile (given proper care), but to live long healthy lives, they'll need to get re-homed.

You've come to the right place to research all that is fishtankery! Good times!

 

[FishDad]

Thanks Thyra.

FishDad, Rotaripsnoc, Thyra, exhumed07
--Is there a cure to ich;medications if any? What is Prime? Is that a brand or a specific dechlorinator composition?

Couldn't get pics to work, but if he has little white spots that look like he's been salted then its ich. There are many different brands that cure ich, your local pet store should have them readily available. They all contain about the same stuff. The meds are taxing on fish, so your challenge is going to be treating him in a weakened state due to the ammonia poisening.

BTW Seachems Prime is a brand of dechlor and very highly recommended, shouldn't be more than $8 and will last you a long, long time.

I want to elaborate a little on water changes. A water change is by far the best thing you can do for your fish. You can never do too many, as long as you dechlor and don't change the temp. In your situation you should be doing daily water changes of at least 50%. This will keep the ammonia and nitrite at manageable levels. Also while we're on that, no matter what ANY fish store employee tells you, ammonia and nitrite are only safe and acceptable at zero. And as long as you have a cycled tank its easy as pie to keep them there. And don't let them test your water. Your own test kit will be infinitly more accurate.

If I were you I would put the attention on the ammonia b/c that will kill him now. Do a massive water change, like %80. That will buy you some time. Then go to your local chain like petsmart or Pet supplies and pick up Seachems Prime and Kordons All Natural Ich Attack - this is an all natural formula, I have no idea if it works or not but it may help to slow the parasite and at the very least it won't stress the fish with toxic chemicals. Make sure you remove your carbon filter media if you have any, as this will absord any medication.

Follow directions on both bottles. The prime will dechlor and detoxify any ammonia in your tank - essential for survival. Then I would just to daily water changes until your tank starts converting ammonia and nitrite, which you will only verify by getting a test kit (api master kit, not dry strips). After cycled, if all natural ich attack fails and the parasite persist then look into some of the more toxic meds.

PS - I highly recommend purchasing a seachems ammonia alert card. They are around 10 bucks but will change color in real time based on your ammonia levels. I have them on all my tanks.

 

[manojvaz]

Couldn't get pics to work, but if he has little white spots that look like he's been salted then its ich. There are many different brands that cure ich, your local pet store should have them readily available. They all contain about the same stuff. The meds are taxing on fish, so your challenge is going to be treating him in a weakened state due to the ammonia poisening.

BTW Seachems Prime is a brand of dechlor and very highly recommended, shouldn't be more than $8 and will last you a long, long time.

I want to elaborate a little on water changes. A water change is by far the best thing you can do for your fish. You can never do too many, as long as you dechlor and don't change the temp. In your situation you should be doing daily water changes of at least 50%. This will keep the ammonia and nitrite at manageable levels. Also while we're on that, no matter what ANY fish store employee tells you, ammonia and nitrite are only safe and acceptable at zero. And as long as you have a cycled tank its easy as pie to keep them there. And don't let them test your water. Your own test kit will be infinitly more accurate.

If I were you I would put the attention on the ammonia b/c that will kill him now. Do a massive water change, like %80. That will buy you some time. Then go to your local chain like petsmart or Pet supplies and pick up Seachems Prime and Kordons All Natural Ich Attack - this is an all natural formula, I have no idea if it works or not but it may help to slow the parasite and at the very least it won't stress the fish with toxic chemicals. Make sure you remove your carbon filter media if you have any, as this will absord any medication.

Follow directions on both bottles. The prime will dechlor and detoxify any ammonia in your tank - essential for survival. Then I would just to daily water changes until your tank starts converting ammonia and nitrite, which you will only verify by getting a test kit (api master kit, not dry strips). After cycled, if all natural ich attack fails and the parasite persist then look into some of the more toxic meds.

PS - I highly recommend purchasing a seachems ammonia alert card. They are around 10 bucks but will change color in real time based on your ammonia levels. I have them on all my tanks.

Fish Dad, I lost Goldie . I believed I could resurrect him by Easter.

As you have pointed out the toxic nature of the water causing the GF to be listless, would getting ammonia, nitrite and nitrate to the required levels make the GF normal? Does a GF need to be fed in that situation? I believe he was dead yesterday. He was smelling when I lifted him today and some kind of deposits came off his body.
1. Now, do I change the complete water or do I do an 80% change siphoning out the debris.
2. Is the water contaminated due to the dead fish and those deposits on it coming off?
3. Do I do a complete water change instead? If yes, do I wash the pebbles( as they are the only things I have used as substrate), plastic plants(2 of them), the filter media(on the top. The water is pumped a top which flows through the filter and then thrown back into the aquarium)
4. The surface agitation is achieved by water thrown back into aquarium, would this suffice oxygenation or do I need to use air stones?
5. You were right, it had salt kind of deposition – itch. What is the cause of itch?
6. How does a fishes buoyancy get affected?
7. Now that I lost both of them, which variety of GF is good for a beginner? Suggest me two varieties that go well with each other?(I'd buy small ones and once they are say couple of months old and big enough they would have their big gala home 200gallon)
8. Could I use of 20gallon aquarium for tropical fresh water fishes? How many fishes could be accommodated if so?
9. Would plants like Java Ferns, Java Moss and Sword Plant aid cycling?
10. How do I dechlor water? Do I need to add the dechlor before hand in the water and allow it sometime, say, 24 hours or could I add the tap water straight into the tank and then add the dechlor?
11. Do I collect the water and allow it 24hours before pouring it in aquarium so that it attains room temperature or do it right away?

I live in Delhi, India and got to check at the pet store the alternative to PRIME. I don't believe I could get the same brand you suggested.

That pet store I go to is a wholesale dealer and has lots and lots of items related to fish keeping. Unfortunately no one at the store is knowledgeable enough and fortunately I hit this website with so many fish lovers having plenty of advice.

 

[exhumed07]

there is a very real possibility of loosing this goldfish if it's in that poor of a state. i recomend what everyone else has said. that will give him the best chance at survival. in the event that he is lost i would suggest to buy maybe 10-20 cheap danios and cycle the tank with them. they are very hardy and they will cycle the tank in a slower more controlable fashion. then once the cycle has completed u can replace those danios with other fish or add more fish to the tank. noone likes to loose fish but in the hobby it happens more then we care to say. or at least i care to say. just don't let it discourage u. this can be a complicated hobby depending how advanced u plan to get. just keep asking for advice and read as much as possible and research fish before u buy them. some fish do great in hard water like cichlids and some do great in soft water like angels and discus. knowing what kinda water and ph ur tank is and knowing what the fish require will save u from alot of headaches later on.

 

[manojvaz]

there is a very real possibility of loosing this goldfish if it's in that poor of a state. i recomend what everyone else has said. that will give him the best chance at survival. in the event that he is lost i would suggest to buy maybe 10-20 cheap danios and cycle the tank with them. they are very hardy and they will cycle the tank in a slower more controlable fashion. then once the cycle has completed u can replace those danios with other fish or add more fish to the tank. noone likes to loose fish but in the hobby it happens more then we care to say. or at least i care to say. just don't let it discourage u. this can be a complicated hobby depending how advanced u plan to get. just keep asking for advice and read as much as possible and research fish before u buy them. some fish do great in hard water like cichlids and some do great in soft water like angels and discus. knowing what kinda water and ph ur tank is and knowing what the fish require will save u from alot of headaches later on.

sure exhumed07, I would do that. You know what, I lost what I posted this morning. I read the message, "Your post would be displayed once it is approved by the moderator." Does that happen when I opt for 'Reply With Quote'? I had a lot of questions in there. Let me recollect and post them again or wait until tomorrow morning to check for moderator's approval.

I lost my Gold Fish. I was hoping to resurrect it by Easter. Anyways, let me research about the fishes you suggested. Thank you exhumed07.

 

[FishDad]

I lost my Gold Fish. I was hoping to resurrect it by Easter.

Give it three days,

 

[manojvaz]

Give it three days,

Not sure in three days time. May be at Christ's second coming

 

[manojvaz]

Couldn't get pics to work, but if he has little white spots that look like he's been salted then its ich. There are many different brands that cure ich, your local pet store should have them readily available. They all contain about the same stuff. The meds are taxing on fish, so your challenge is going to be treating him in a weakened state due to the ammonia poisening.

BTW Seachems Prime is a brand of dechlor and very highly recommended, shouldn't be more than $8 and will last you a long, long time.

I want to elaborate a little on water changes. A water change is by far the best thing you can do for your fish. You can never do too many, as long as you dechlor and don't change the temp. In your situation you should be doing daily water changes of at least 50%. This will keep the ammonia and nitrite at manageable levels. Also while we're on that, no matter what ANY fish store employee tells you, ammonia and nitrite are only safe and acceptable at zero. And as long as you have a cycled tank its easy as pie to keep them there. And don't let them test your water. Your own test kit will be infinitly more accurate.

If I were you I would put the attention on the ammonia b/c that will kill him now. Do a massive water change, like %80. That will buy you some time. Then go to your local chain like petsmart or Pet supplies and pick up Seachems Prime and Kordons All Natural Ich Attack - this is an all natural formula, I have no idea if it works or not but it may help to slow the parasite and at the very least it won't stress the fish with toxic chemicals. Make sure you remove your carbon filter media if you have any, as this will absord any medication.

Follow directions on both bottles. The prime will dechlor and detoxify any ammonia in your tank - essential for survival. Then I would just to daily water changes until your tank starts converting ammonia and nitrite, which you will only verify by getting a test kit (api master kit, not dry strips). After cycled, if all natural ich attack fails and the parasite persist then look into some of the more toxic meds.

PS - I highly recommend purchasing a seachems ammonia alert card. They are around 10 bucks but will change color in real time based on your ammonia levels. I have them on all my tanks.

I have questions here:

1. The fish was dead day before yesterday because, when I tried to net it out for feed(since he is sick and wouldn't come to top), there were some deposit that came off its body and he was smelling badly. Has the water been contaminated due to this? Do I do a complete water change or large, say 90%?
2. I wouldn't want to clean the pebbles(that is the only substrate I have), plastic plants or filter media as I believe it would have the beneficial bacteria sitting on them if I were to do a water change. Am I right?
3. The aquarium right now has a mix of tap water(not de-chlorinated) and RO water. Aquarium had RO water completely before and last Sunday I did a 50% water change with tap water. Would this mix be harmful or kill any bacteria developed?
4. The tap water at our house comes from a submersible pump underground. I believe it wouldn't have chlorine unlike the municipality(a local body here) supplied water were they treat with chlorine. Am I right? If yes, then could I use it as is without treating for Chlorine?
5. How do I dechlorinate, in case am incorrect on #4? Do I add the dechlorinator to the water in the bucket and allow it a day or so, or do I add it in the aquarium directly after pouring it in?
6. Do I allow the collected water before a water change, sometime, say 24hours for it to get set to the room temperature or use it directly?
7. The PRIME you said is an anti chlorine agent besides being a de toxifier, removing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and also reducing algae growth. If PRIME offers so, much why is then cycling required? Could we not add PRIME to the water and achieve the purpose saving time on cycling?
8. Does plants like Java Ferns, Sword Plants and Java Moss aid in cycling process besides being disgusting to GF so that they won't nibble them?
9. The filter pulls in the water from the left corner(me facing the aquarium) and it runs a top where it percolates through the filter media and is thrown back at the right corner. This agitates the surface and I believe this should do good for oxygenation. Do I need to have air stones if not?
10. What species of gold fish would you suggest for beginners like me? I need only 2 and each a different specie.
11. There were white spots like he was salted. What is the cause of ich?
12. What is the cause of buoyancy, as you said before?
13. What could cause swim bladder problems?

 

[exhumed07]

1. the water is contaminated but if there is bacteria forming in there they will clean it up for the most part. i would still do a large water change just to be sure.
2. cleaning the plants, pebbles, and filter should not be needed after doing a water change.
3. if not de-chlorinated then it could have killed off the bacteria since thats y cities put it in the water.
4. if it is well water then yes is is clean of those chemicals and odds are is hard water unless it goes through a water softener but will still be fairly hard. i use straight tap water from my well and my africans love it. they are alot brighter and more active in my water then the lfs in the city. well water is good for most fish as it has many minerals they can absorb. down side is it can have harmfull things like lead in it. my water is minimal but 10 miles away they advise not drinking the water due to lead content out of well water.
5. i have never had to de-chlorinate but a friend of mine in the cities takes a bucket and fills it and adds twice as much de-chlorinator as recomended to the bucket and mixes it up real quick and pours it in his tanks. he has a 10 gallon and a 55 and he has never had any problems with doing that, at least that i know of. but prepping it the night before a water change i wont hurt anything.
6. try to match the tank temp. if u use no heater then add the water at room temp. if a heater is used then try to match the tank temp. i know people who will take the heater out of their tank and put it in a bucket of water to get it up to the tank temp.
7. cycling a tank is a natural process. say u don't cycle the tank and for some reason u can't go home for a few days or even a week. in a cycled tank the fish will be fine. if the tank aint cycled then odds are all the fish will die from toxic water. cycling is a process we all have been through and be it annoying at times it is a necessity.
8. plants will absorb some of the ammonia and such but is not a reliable option for that. adding plants durring the cycle will help control it and help keep it from being so hard on the fish but will not negate the process or render the cycle useless lets say.
9. air stones help but minimally. the gas transfer happens with the surface. larger the surface area the better the gass exchange. and surface aggitation is a good way to get a good gas exchange. i belive thats mostly what an air stone will do. as the bubbles come to the top they creat a current bringing water from the bottom of the tank to the top turning the water over instead of sitting still going stagnent. i don't personally belive that the bubbles from the air stone itself does much for airation.
10. i would not suggest goldfish at all for a beginner as they are very filthy fish as far as a bioload goes. 1 goldfish can comfortably fit in a 20 gallon tank and for every other goldfish and additional 10 gallons is needed. so 4 goldfish for a 50 gallon tank. obviously with more rigid maintinance i.e. water changes and filter cleanings u can keep more but is not recomended. for a 20 gallon tank i would go with schools of small tropical fish like guppies or mollies. swords platties, cory cats and kuuli or dojo loaches. for a beginner that would be my suggestion.
11. ich is usually caused by stress. their immune system weakens much like our own. but we do not swim in our own waste so we don't get sick as easily as fish can due to the stress. there are ways to prevent ich like adding salt to the tank. is small amounts of salt mind u. like 1 tablespoon per gallon. don't quote me as i cant say exactly but what this will do is irritate the fish creating a thicker slime coat. that will prevent the parasite from attaching to begine with or smother them if already attached. then of course there are store bought medications.
12. there is a bladder along the inside body cavity along the spine called a swim bladder. it's a gas bladder that keeps the fish floating upright and as they go higher and deeper in the water the fish can increase the gas or decrease the gas to keep them neutrally boyant. i have whats called a fizzing needle fore fishing. if i take fish from 20 feet of water the swim bladder has more gas in it then at 5 feet down and it can expand causing the fish to spit out it's own guts killing the fish. so u push the needle into the bladder and release the pressure before releasing. the swim bladder is very important to the fish
13. stress, and illness are the most common causes.

 

[OrangeCones]

11. ich is usually caused by stress.

Ich is not CAUSED by stress, but stress will allow ich to more easily attack fish in an aquarium if the ich is present in the water. If there is no ich present, no amount of stress will cause it to appear.

By far, the easiest way to prevent ich is to always use a quarantine tank and to use heat in the quarantine tank to treat the new fish as if they have ich spores if the fish can tolorate 86 degree temperatures for two weeks.