green film algae. Not normal algae.

KcMopar

Superstar Fish
#21
Cyano makes its own food and does not need light, cyano gets its food by taking N directly from the decaying matter, cyano is bacteria. You will likely need to do daily water changes. You really want to keep the ammonia and nitrate to just under the barely detectable level. Anything past the first indicating color could be catastrophic to the tank. I do not know how successful it would be but, you could cut WAY WAY back on the feedings and vacuum/water change daily for a couple weeks but, by the time you do that its about the same work as the antibiotics/recycling way and its more of a sure fire direction.
 

Feb 27, 2009
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#22
Cyano makes its own food and does not need light, cyano gets its food by taking N directly from the decaying matter, cyano is bacteria.
I respectfully disagree, KcMopar. Cyanobacteria needs light, nitrogen, and phosphorus to live. This website explains how they live and spread.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/ewh-semt/pubs/water-eau/cyanobacter-eng.php

Or is it advisable to just do a blackout for a week? I'd rather make sure 100% it's gone, I can do any and all necessary maintenance.
Dan - If you are willing to do the necessary water changes, this is what my Ecology class did for a class experiment at a community college.

We had 4 different aquariums, identical in light, bioload, plant mass (floating plants and stem plants with weights to keep them submerged) and no gravel. They were 20 gallons each and deliberately infected with the same cyanobacteria 14 days before the experiments started.

Tank 1: Antibiotics were used and 25% water changes done daily.

Tank 2: 50% water changes, 2 times per day.

Tank 3: Antibiotics and Blackout for 7 days, no water changes.

Tank 4: Blackout for 7 days, with 25% daily water changes.

All fish were fed daily with sinking pellets. All had the same hang-on-the-back filter and it was kept running for the duration of the experiment. All tanks were cycled and had been running for about 8 months.

For Tanks 3 and 4, to prevent any light from coming in, the blackout was not removed at all (thick black blanket wrapped around tank, including taping it to prevent any light from getting in. We left one corner with a flap so we could drop the food in. We'd put our hand under the flap, feel for the edge of the water and drop in the food. This prevented any light from reaching inside.

For Tank 4, we had a 5 gallon bucket sitting on a counter above the tank level with a piece of airline tubing leading into the tank, in a similar 'flap' fashion as the 'pellet flap'. To do water changes on this tank, we'd lower the bucket to the floor, start the syphon and drain out 5 gallons of water. When we had the bucket full, we'd 'pinch' the air line tubing to prevent further syphoning, empty the bucket, fill it with clean water and dechlorinate it. Then we'd put the bucket on the counter above tank level, 'unpinch' the tubing while underwater in the bucket, which would automatically restart the syphon.

At the end of day 7, the experiment stopped. We cleaned each tank of all visible cyano (dead or alive) with seperate equipment so not to cross contaminate things.

Only Tank 4 was completely 100% free of cyano. From day 8 to 30 (the end of the class), no cyano was ever seen in that tank. No loss of fish, plants were a bit droopy after no light for 7 days, but they all recovered.

The 'cycle' of the Tanks 1, 2, and 4 were not affected. Tank 3, the cycle was destroyed. We concluded that it was the combo of the antibiotics and decaying of the cyano that caused the beneficial bacteria die off.
 

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Apr 1, 2006
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#23
Awesome thanks,

And thanks to everyone else, im sure there must be some variances to resilience in acidic and alkaline and maybe different things work in different conditions better than others.. I will try the blackout first as i need my bacteria to survive, if i harm them my fish could suffer badly, if im at work and ammonias rise and i can tell till 8 hours later it could be a problem, especially as im working every day till christmas now, except today.

Ill get stuff do a complete blackout and will feed fish regularly by ingenious means hehehe i have ideas...
thanks.

Ill let you know what happens,

Thanks

Dan
 

KcMopar

Superstar Fish
#24
OC is right cyano does need light to live indefinitely. It does not however need your tank light as I should have explained better, Cyano would survive without this light being on and can live for a long time without light at all. When you all talked about a black out I thought you meant just turning the light off until I read the new post by OC about covering the tank completely. Cyano is photosynthetic, so it can live forever on hardly any light at all, cyano will change its pigment to adjust to (about) any light source regardless of intensity or spectrum. Cyano can create its own N (nitrogen), this is called nitrogen fixation, so it can live in tanks with very low nitrate levels but high in other nutrients such as phosphates that OC mentions as well and organic waste matter which is where it would get its N. Cyano can live for long periods without light because of Ribulose bisphosphate pathway. This is how cyano creates cell carbon (energy) without light.
So yes a weeks worth of COMPLETE black out would work but, just turning off the tank light would not as I assumed was the procedure being discussed. See what happens when I assume????!!!!????
Thanks for setting it straight OC.
 

Feb 27, 2009
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#25
KcMopar - Thanks for the conversation here. We all have different experiences and backgrounds. Cyano is a big problem for those that raise crops and livestock, too. That was the focus of this class (I needed 3 more credits in a science to graduate and didn't want to take biology!).

Cyano can also fix nitrogen from the air above your tank! Some used to advocate limiting nitrates would help, but it adapts and lives on to use the nitrogen from the air. Another experiment we did was in an empty tank (of plants/fish) that cyano was added to. The water had nitrates added to bring it up to 80ppm (waste water from other cycled tanks). The cyano kinda liingered along the bottom, around the HOB filter intake tube and a bit on the sides of the tank.

When it had exhausted the nitrates, some of it began to die off. We were hoping to see it die then! But no...some died, decayed, released nitrogen again into the water, and fed the rest! And the 'colony' was on the move then. It creeped up along the tank walls until it reached the surface of the water. Now it had a direct source of nitrogen.

Evidently, it doesn't need much phosphorus to exist, because no 'new' wastewater was added and it lived for months. Eventually, over the summer, it did die off without any work from anyone (8 months after being started). The instructor added RO water as a 'top off' to keep the HOB filter working for circulation (water lost due to evaporation). Cyano eventually died after it exhausted the available phosphorus, which it can only take in via the water column.

I was suprised that Tank 3 above didn't cure the cyano as antibiotics do often work for people. I think perhaps the dose was not enough and/or the dying/decaying cyano protected the cyano under it from exposure. Dunno. We thought it had worked also, but by day 11, it recovered enough to show itself again!

What is scary is that cyano can live in water with pH as low as 1 and as high as 14...so in ANY source of water. I remember, as a teen, being paid by a neighbor to spot syphon off cyano (didn't know what it was at the time) from the 'fake' coral decorations in the tank. It was a thick carpet of red 'algae'!
 

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KcMopar

Superstar Fish
#26
Bacteria is a very unique organism. Purple can even convert co2 to cell carbon. It can live off of its stored resources in a dormant stage by using chemical reaction and enzymes to create food for its cells by means of synthesizing a photo period , some bacteria can even pull electrons from its surroundings if needed. Its scary that something so small can be so sophisticated. It is very good at adapting to survive in changing environments. Just wait until we really understand it!!!! We will have the best cures and weapons of mass destruction ever in history.

I just love science, never said I was any good at it LOL. I have an electro/mechanical engineering background that I never finished so I have had many science type courses. I also grew up on a farm to so I know what you mean by ferts. I also had access to some ammonium nitrate as a teenager too. LOL, what fun that was!!!
 

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Thyra

Superstar Fish
Jun 2, 2010
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#27
What you seem to be saying, Kerry, sort of supports my thoughts - that even if the media in a filter dries out, the bacteria can survive in the dormant stage until the environment again supports its growth.
 

Apr 1, 2006
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#32
Just so you're all aware, I started the blackout at 6pm yesterday and developed an ingenious means of adding and removing vast quantities of water without letting light in, I can also add food too. I used a hose like others suggested but I used a bigger hose which came with gravel cleaner. And put a spray bar on the end of it. The holes are too small for fish to get In but big enough for food, not the Pleco wafers. So I may have to feel around in the dark to administer those one. Night,

Dan
 

Apr 1, 2006
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#33
Ok, thought id update you all,

Its been a short while now, three nights i think, i have a little chart downstairs recording feeding and water changes, only thing that irritates me is that im worried.

ive got some good rare plecs and im worried that soo much change in ph with these water changes might harm them, i honestly cant wait till friday night, but i cant help but think... what if ones dead?

you know what i mean?
anyway, i had a hose going into tank, with a sponge over the end of a spray bar so that no fish got sucked up and so that food could get in, but silly me didnt think for some reason that pleco wafers were gunna get through those holes....

So i had 1 candle lit about 1 foot away from the entrance to this feeding hatch, just so i could vaguely see. so i opened hatch and dropped in a block of frozen foods and 5 pleco wafers.

then covered all back up again hehe. I am confident that 0 light got in and all is good hopefully,

Im just soo worried...
 

Feb 27, 2009
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#36
ive got some good rare plecs and im worried that soo much change in ph with these water changes might harm them, i honestly cant wait till friday night, but i cant help but think... what if ones dead?
Can you do a water test on the water you are changing out? IF something had died, you'd see an ammonia spike. But I don't think there is much possiblity of that. Is the pH of the water you are putting in vastly different than the fish tank's water?
 

Apr 1, 2006
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#37
the ph of my tap water is around 8, the tank has driftwood which i believe softens the water.. i think there is a change there... ill test the water that i siphon out,

I suppose that as i did three 20% water changes spaced apart about every 2 days before i started the blackout it should be ok, as this would have acclimatised them over a a week.

(this change was due to filter media arriving and scrubbing the tank every other day due to the cyano,)

I'll test the water for ph and ammonia tonight.

Dan
 

Dan Steveo

Large Fish
Apr 1, 2006
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South England UK
#40
sorry i should have posted up, thought i did, It was really good, There were a few little bits still on the wood but i think they're dead, i tried scrubbing it off, but its tough stuff, tooth brush didnt work haha.

Its been a while now and its all good... touch wood...
Im not worried about it coming back really ill just do another blackout, However there was one slight Problem...

My normal schedule for water changes is once a week 25% or twice a week of 20% when i can,
As the PH of my tap water is around 8.6 and my tank water is a bit lower due to driftwood etc... The sharp change in PH due to 7, 25% waterchanges over 1 week did stress my fish a bit, I have 3 bristlenoses with slices in their fins, and also one of my dwarf neon rainbows and a tetra are all showing signs of fin rot too, its not too bad but i dont think it's just a bit of fighting, so i've begun treating with api melafix,

And ideas on how well it works? Ive read some good reviews...

NEXT TIME, i will slowly acclimate the fish with increasing water changes leading up till the week then will black out, that way they should be a lot less stressed.

THanks again guys, Blackout was awesome.