HELP!

[pigs_fly]

Ok guys, I need your help, i posted this thread in the freshwater beginners forum, and then it wa recommended to me to post something in the betta forum - that had never crossed my mind, dumb me so, here is my original post, follwed by the replies i got, please help if you can, my betta is looking worse and worse

ORIGINAL POST:Ok everyone, its me again....with yet another problem. And I am apologizing ahead of time, because this is going to be an extremely lengthy post Ok, so, my betta. He has been doing great until Friday (the 3rd). That is when he started to not look so hot. Lotus gave me a link about betta diseases, etc. and that helped me to narrow things down as to what might be wrong with him. His fins were clumped (i.e. they werent fanned like a happy, healthy betta), and his gills were red, and he was extremely lethargic - this all occured after the temperature of his tank had elevated to 86F (for an explanation see "Fuzzy stuff.....sick fish?"). So, i was thinking he had "simply" been overheated.....aka: was being cooked to death!! And, according the website, he didnt have any other visible disease, but was showing signs of depression...I purchased an amonia water test kit, a nitrite water test kit, and a nitrate water test kit (Line: Nutrafin, Distributor/Company: Hagen) - the kind with the test tubes and dropper bottles. Everything seemed to checked out ok (NH3: 0-.1mg/L; NO2: less than .1mg/L; and NO3: 5-10mg/L ). But, even still, I did my weekly water change (about 25-30%) Saturday night (using my usual RO water and stresszyme) and I used an aquarium sponge to clean the sides of tank a little bit (I had some algae growing). That seemed to help with his mood. He started to swim around more actively the next day and was looking great - no more red gills and his fins were fanned . He was also eating quite heartily which was an amazing improvment from Friday when he wouldnt touch a nip of food (Saturday morning he did eat but he threw it all up about 5min later, this was before i did the water change - that was done saturday night). He ate this morning, which is good, but he looks soooo bad right now. He is rather lethargic again and his fins are all clumped together again, his gills are now splotchy bright red (not completely red, just patches), he seems to be struggling for air - almost like he is suffocating, because he will be towards the bottom of the tank and start flarring his gills extrememly (at 90 degree angles) and then swim around kind of crazed and finally find the surface and take huge gulps of air....now i know that is not good. I have the top of his tank slightly removed to allow for more surface air, hoping that maybe that is the problem...I'm at a loss as to what I should do now. Could it be a parasite of some sort? Is there something wrong with my water quality? pH? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Again, sorry this is so lengthy, I just wanted to try to give yall everything you needed to know now so that you dont have to keep asking later Thanks.

echoofformless - Little Fish
What size tank is this, what sort of filtration, etc.

If you have no ammonia and no nitrite and only a small amount of nitrate, than your water is basically good. I assume since it's RO that the pH is around 7 or so. Bettas like anything from 6.4-7.6.

Now the temperature matters more if it's steady than a particular degree reading. BUT bettas do best in anything above 70 and below 85. The 86 might tick him off a little, but it wouldn't lead to any stress worth worrying about.


My only assumption, being as though the water parameters are good, is that perhaps it is some sort of an illness that hasn't run its course or been cured. Other than that I might mention that RO water is weak in mineral content. He might be missing out on something due to that fact.
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My Reply
My tank is about 1.5 gallons; it has ummm, i dont really know what to call the filtration system, but it has a cylinder coming up from the bottom of the tank (kinda in the middle) and then I have an airstone at the base of the cylinder and a carbon filter attached to the top of the cylinder.....The reason i use the RO water is because, no other water has been able to keep my fish alive I tired treating my tap water, and then i tried using bottled water, and this is the only thing that has worked so far...If he is sick (i cant determine any specific kind of illness..) is there any general kind of meds that i could treat him with? Thanks for your thoughts and ideas. He is looking even worse now though, he is resting kind of tilted to one side on the bottom of the tank....i really dont want to lose this one - i like him

EDIT: should i try putting a fresh filter in?
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homebunnyj - Little Fish
If you post up in the betta forum, you might catch some of the betta people a lot sooner. I know you are very anxious.
Sounds like he may be having trouble breathing. Try a complete water change, being sure to match the temp. If he's been happy and healthy in the water supply you've been using, fine. If not, maybe you might mix a little tap water in with it; I recall your tap water isn't very good, thus the RO water.
Google 'betta diseases' or betta illness and read several sites, not just the one. Do a really close visual inspection in good bright light, looking for anything abnormal... spots, color changes, changes in body size or shape, fin or scale abnormalities, lesions, unidentified 'things' anywhere on him. Look at his gills for anything unusual, maybe some sort of parasites or something. Has he been 'flashing'-- rubbing himself on the bottom or sides of the tank, or plants or ornaments? suddenly darting around? sitting on the bottom/ staying at the top? These may clue you in to what the problem is as you read.
Good luck. Keep us posted.
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My Reply

Thanks homebunnyj, ill try posting in the betta forum. for the full water change, would i just cup out the old water and then pour in the new water - no rinsing of the gravel or anything like that? there is definitely a color change in his gills - the blood red splotches (like the red when our eyes our blood shot..)i have been tyring to get a good look at his all over appearance from the get go, and i havent noticed anything aside form the gills, except for i think his "stomach" (his inner gut) appears to be kind of dark...darker than i remember it being when i first got him. he hasnt really been rubbing, but he does sit on the top/bottom of the tank, and he is definitely having trouble breathing (at least it appears that way), the only darting swimming is like i mentioned above, that he appears to freak out and its as if he cant find the surface of the water to get air....thanks for you suggestions

EDIT: could the minimal algae cause this?
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I have taken all of these suggestions into consideration, but im still not coming up with anything...please help if you can. Thanks

 

[homebunnyj]

Yeah, just change the water, don't rinse the gravel. Sounds like you have an undergravel filter...? No, algae won't make your fish sick. While you're waiting to see if the water change relieves him, go do some research. The answer may be right around the corner.

 

[pigs_fly]

Im not sure about the filter being under gravel or not...its what came with the tank (one of those cheap starter kits). Well, the base, the cylinder and the airstone came with the tank, i bout the attachment for the filter myself...its kind of makeshift...but ill go ahead and do the full water change and keep on researching, thanks

What about the carbon? should i switch that out?

 

[ninamarie]

If there is no visable signs of desese then we can't help you with what to treat with.
No white cottony stuff on him?
No white spots


Other then that is is all I can say:
take mr fish out and put him in hospital tank. Treat him in there.

Break down his tank/bowl and CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN it.
Wash gravel/rocks plants decor in hot hot water.
Clean the tank with hot water and a paper towl.

rinse it well.
Add decor and whatever else back in add water( treat it with something like Oh Bowl buddies by Jungleproducts.

let it stand for a while add fish back in.

Best of luck oh.
Is there away to post a picture of your betta

 

[pigs_fly]

thanks ninamarie. I just did the full water change like homebunnyj suggested...i wont be able to get new RO water for at least a week, so i dont know what to do about that....its really hard for me to get places without a car, and with my local mom&pop LFS recently closed, i have to drive to the next city, but i will get there as soon as i possibly can. I will post a picture of my betta from when i first got him and he was all happy, and i will post a picture of him now - unfortunately, there is really no change to his appearance, just the inflammed gills...is StressZyme like the Oh Bowl BUddies you were suggesting? I'll put the pictures up soon.

 

[VirgoWolf]

I would just get some Amquel or other similar dechlorinator and use tap water, that way you don't have to worry about picking up water all the time, just keep some on hand.

I may have missed some things because I kinda skimmed through some of the replies, but does anyone else suspect flukes? These symptoms are similar to what my butterfly koi had when he had flukes and my Kenyi cichlid had them also. Maybe try the Jungle Parasite Clear? (worked for my cichlid) The tabs are rated for 10g a piece, so I'd probably get the liquid so it's easier to get the correct ammount. Worth a shot I'd think, but I've never had a betta, so I may be missing even more here.

 

[homebunnyj]

Virgo, I was thinking that but didn't want to say because I don't know much about it, kinda hoping pigs fly's research might tell if it is or isn't a possibility. But with breathing trouble... hmm....

 

[ninamarie]

ah yes flukes

 

[pigs_fly]

Ok guys, flukes sounded like a possibility to me too, heres one thing i found on treating them:

Gyrodactylus Monogenetic Flukes
In fact a flat worm that in the early stages can be mistaken for white spot. They infect the gills and skin of their host and produce live young. Symptoms are pale skin, drooping fins, rapid respiration and even emaciation.

Treat as for Argulus, Potassium Permanganate or alternatively use Formalin but only in a hospital tank, use 2 ml of 40% solution per 10 litres for 45 minutes. Salt bath at 15 gm per litre for 20 minutes may also work.

some other treatments i found were: Clout and Coppersafe, RECOMMENDED TREATMENT: Will usually go away on its own, as the complex life cycle of the fluke can not be completed in an aquarium. Otherwise, a five minute freshwater bath followed by formalin @ 75 ppm for one hour. Formalin is dangerous to use, so treat ONLY is a hospital tank, and wear gloves and goggles when handling.

The only thing im not too sure about are the balck spots...the only black i see on my betta is rimming his gills...and, there is one "black" (more gray) spot on the tip of his chin that has been there since i got him, and then i found one on his left side.....they look like a lot of little dots all clumped together....he looks soooo bad right now, im thinking he is gone, should i consider euthanasia *shudder*....?

EDIT: what about gill disease? treated with Maracyn Two? the symptoms seem to check out: swollen, discolored, gasping for air, inactive

but heres another fluke description that fits my bud exactly:
Flukes - Usually the gills are infected. A pretty obvious one to spot, since the gills become inflamed, red, swollen, and may even fungus or bleed. The fish looks and acts miserable, often clamping his fins and panting. He will also probably try to bash himself against anything he can - plants, rocks, sides of tank, other fish, etc - to rid himself of the flukes. In some disgusting cases you can actually SEE the little buggers hanging from the fish, like long threads. You need to treat him with a good creepy-getter medication like Coppersafe, Formalin 3, or Permoxyn, and raise the temperature to 82 - 84 degrees.

 

[Lotus]

This (down at the bottom) might help: http://www.bettatalk.com/betta_diseases.htm

 

[pigs_fly]

thanks lotus, that is one possibility that i thought of as i was researching. So, should i just try adding salt to my tank? And if so, what kind of salt should i get..? I have a ride to petco tomorrow (my LFS that i usual go to closed ) around 12:30 CST, so, if anyone knows what i can get there, that would be great - things like salt type and meds, etc...

I went ahead and changed out the carbon in my filter and ill go ahead and pick up some more from petco, if they have it...

What meds would you recommend for treating gill disease and flukes, in case its one or the other. is there and antibiotic that you would recommend for both...? Cause I havent found anything that claims to treat both...aside from maybe the salt...
I'm gonna do some water tests on my tap water here in a little bit - NH3, NO3, and NO2, i dont have a pH test kit - so I can know exactly what kinda of crappy parameters im dealing with . Ill let you all know what the results of the tests are, and then if yall have any suggestions on what i should use to treat the water (conditioners, dechlor, etc) that would be greatly appreciated.

just one more thing, about dechlor. I have used in in the past, back home, and it worked fine for the first few water changes, but then it (we think) started killing the fish, so we stopped using it, and they were fine...anyone ever heard of this happening? I dont remember what the brand of dechlor was, sorry

thanks again everyone!!


EDIT: Ok, here is an album of my fish pictures. the pictures are labled "sick" or "First brought home".... http://photobucket.com/albums/b41/aggiev09/Spring06/

 

[ninamarie]

He looks ok actually.

Do this,
Clean bowl out
Fill with water
add one tab of Betta Bowl Buddies(let desolve)

Add fish back in.

His gills don't look inflamed and just look normal red.
I can see the black spots but other then that he looks good.
Love his colors too.

 

[pigs_fly]

Thanks Nina, i love his colors too . I still think his gills are inflamed because they are much more blood-shot red than they were when i first brought him home and he was "healthy". At that time, they had a more "healthy glow" to them, rather than this dark-bright red....

i went ahead and did a full water change, and switched out the carbon in the filter.

Today i went to petco and i talked to their fish "expert" who gave me a tablet of Clout, for free! so, he told me to dissolve about 1/10 of the tablet (because of the size of my tank) in some of my tank water and then pour that back into the tank. He told me to do that every 3rd day and then, once 10 treatments have been done (i.e. the tablet is gone) do a complete water change. Does that sound ok to everyone?

So, the first treatment is in - i did it about 3hours ago before my last class. and my little boy is already looking better - well, at least his fins arent all clumped anymore He is starting to show them off again I can tell that he is still in some discomfort though, as he is still swimming eratically around, trying to rub up on the sides of the tank and the plants, and still is having some difficulties breathing...But, all in all, i think we are on the road to recovery! He is still eating heartily (makes me soooo happy!), he isnt just sitting at the bottom anymore, and he's fanning his fins more!

So, let me know what you think about the current treatment, Nina, ill look into getting some Betta Bolw Buddies.

One last concern. Spring break starts this Friday and I am going home....so, naturally, Flounder is too. should I take him home in his little store cup? Its about a three hour drive. I have never lost a fish on the drive (just while they are sitting in my tank, of course ), but i have never taken a betta home. i have always left my other fish in the tank for the trip, but I'm just wondering if, since he is already ill, he will be less stressed in his cup (and maybe if i keep i dark...covered with something around the sides - air hole still open of course). Thank you so much everyone, ill continue to keep you all posted

 

[ninamarie]

You can't leave him in your dorm? no one is around to feed him?

If you have to take him home make sure he is stable enuff to move and when you get home clear out his holding cup and get him some new H20.

I read that you should pack him in aa container and suround it wtih styrphome<sp wrong yes) so little movement accures.

Good luck

 

[sweetvegan74]

try this

Cute kitty BTW

Since your fish is in a small aquarium perhaps you can change him over to spring water. Even though the tests show the water is fine, you never know what is in tap water there can be some addivites that is making your fishy feel like bleah*SICK* Make sure the PH is at the level your Betta is at. I buy Silver Springs for my Betta. BJ's Whole Sales sells it. The PH is 6.8 but I am sure there are plenty of other brands with a good range.


I hope he gets better soon.

 

[pigs_fly]

No, I can't leave him in the dorm, the campus will be cleared out I'm taking my tank home too (keeping the same water, no water change), I was just wondering what would be the best way to take a not so happy fishy on a 3hour road trip...How can i determine if he is stable enough? I'm leaving Thursday evening or early Friday morning....

Thanks sweetvegan, he is a cutie . I was using bottled water before i started using the RO water....I'm just gonna try to make it out to bryan to continue getting the RO water...

Well, hes still swimmin! Thanks again everyone. But do yall think that my current method of treatment is ok (see my previous post)?

 

[ninamarie]

What is RO water???

 

[homebunnyj]

reverse osmosis/ deionized... pure water... no minerals at all, nothing like tap water. I would personally buy spring water at the grocery store, myself. That's what I did when we lived in the country and had well water that we were afraid to drink. (Lots of chemicals leached into the ground water here, wells often unsafe, cheap landlady told us it was drinkable but she herself drank bottled water from the grocery store and tried to keep us from seeing it, lol... afraid we'd ask for a discount on the rent, I guess.)
Bettatalk.com says to buy spring water, not distilled water b/c distilled is short on substances bettas need. I think RO would be the same in that regard.

 

[pigs_fly]

Ok, I'll try using the spring water again, I'm just afraid that something will happen because (this may just be luck) i havent been able to keep fish alive without using RO, since my first fish in this whole long chronology of depressing fish stories died and i liked that little platy too But, I suppose I could try again with the bottled water - what stinks is that its a lot more expensive than the RO water, but ill deal with it

So, since no one has said anything against/about using the clout every third day, i'm guessing that that treatment is a good one...so, ill keep doing it.

Gotta run to a meeting! Thanks again!

 

[ninamarie]

I use water from the water machine here at work/ It is Auqua Prix..then I add my betta bowl buddy tab and all is well