Money can't buy you water quality

[supahtim]

don't all the critters and what-not that's in your rock and sand need the bacteria in the water column to survive? if there is no bacteria in the water column, what are they going to feed on?

how long has it been since you introduced all of your fish at the same time? that's a huge bioload added all at once... usually you introduce one fish at a time over a period of time so you don't have any spikes.

if your rock is live, then your sand is probably live too.

 

[discus4everGrl]

The presence or non presence of a UV is pretty much irrelevant to cycling.

I would like to hear why it's a big time no-no. It's not going to do anything to bacteria that aren't in the water column (and your filter bacteria aren't).

I will see if I can find some dirrect references for you to look at later on. However, I have a test tonight so thats what I'll be reading today. However, I wouldn't go AS far as to say it has no affect on cycling at this point.

 

[wayne]

I am very sure. Filter bacteria are all resident on a surface, they don't generally float around.

A UV only works whats' actually in the UV. Your filter bacteria aren't.

 

[discus4everGrl]

so what your saying is that during cycling - when there are no bacteria in the filter that the process of colonization doesn't include bacteria making it's way through the water column until it settles on something like floss. I don't think uv sterilzation stops cycling, but I wouldn't say it doesn't affect it at all.

bacteria colonize more than just the filter. We already know for a fact they colonize gravel because seeding a new aquarium is a good idea right? In order for bacteria to get there, in a unseeded aquarium the bacteria must travel the water column somehow so to say there isn't bacteria in the water column is not true. Furthermore, any solid surface in a tank can be colonized by bacteria so there could potentially be a higher rate of bacteria in the tank than in the filter. If the uv sterilizer kills those bacteria that must travel the column to settle in the tank then I would say that cycling could be slowed down.

The only reason that I have to disagree with this argument that has been presented here is that 1) When I was getting ready fir discus I put a uv sterilizer on the tank when I was cycling and the tank never fully cycled. Once I took it off, guess what happened. 2) I have read in several places not to use a uv sterilizer on cycling tanks 3) bacteria are not stationary, and have the capacity to colonize everything solid in a tank.

 

[wayne]

You're assuming surface dwelling bacteria reproduce by moving through the water column, rather than fission when attached to the filter surface. They probably do move thorugh the water column at points in time, but I don't think that when they're spreading through a tanks surfaces that's the preferred method.
You're also not taking into account that for every 50 ml of water that's inside a UV at a point in time, there's possibly a 1000 times more water in the tank, and not in the UV. Considering that it's statistically unlikely a particular bacterium will ever enter the UV, and considering the number of bacteria involved, I think it's not likely that a UV will affect a set of cycling bacteria that chooses to move thorugh the water column, rather than multiplying by insitu fission.
The above is also the reason UV's are a hit or miss subject for curing ich. If you have a heavy infestation, then you're statistically unlikely to zap them all in a given period of time (the time till they reach a new host)

 

[discus4everGrl]

Prove it Wayne

heres what we shall do - set up six aquariums

Three controls
Three experimental

1) with filter and lr and uv sterilizer
2) filter and lr without uv sterilizer
3) filter only with uv sterilizer
4) filter only w/o uv sterilizer
5) lr only with uv
6) lr without uv

see which cycles first. I'll get right on that...... *thumbsup2

 

[supahtim]

i wish i had the kind of money to do an experiment like that... haha

Wayne, don't forget that the UV sterilizer also circulates water in the tank, so it's not taking in the water it just shot out.

Tim

 

[dbacksrat]

you have to consider what wayne is saying--he definetly knows loads more than most of us here...I'm with him on this argument

 

[wayne]

I don't have the time to setup 6 aquariums though I think I know what the results would show. However, to repond to points...

bacteria colonize more than just the filter<<Yes, although I don't have a filter per se in my salt tank, the whole tank is the filter>>. We already know for a fact they colonize gravel because seeding a new aquarium is a good idea right?<<Absolutely, I have not cycled a tank for a long,long time,waste of effort>> In order for bacteria to get there, in a unseeded aquarium the bacteria must travel the water column somehow so to say there isn't bacteria in the water column is not true.<<Strictly speaking true>> Furthermore, any solid surface in a tank can be colonized by bacteria so there could potentially be a higher rate of bacteria in the tank than in the filter<<Only for the first few minutes when bacterial spores are arriving in the air. Also not true if you're seeding or using LR. If there were more bacteria in your water than in your filter media, would you even need a filter>>>>. If the uv sterilizer kills those bacteria that must travel the column to settle in the tank then I would say that cycling could be slowed down. <<You're oversestimating the powers of UV, principally you're overestimating what % of the tank water they can affect in a short time. The bacteria will be dispersed amongst the tank water, not queueing up to get in the UV>>

Remember that when you're buying in Liverock you're buying in lots of bacteria, and not having to rely on windborne spores to deliver them to you. you are thne going straight away to a situation where you have countless millions attached to a media, and undoubtedly some ofthem decide to move into the water column. However this will be a relatively trivial number and also it may not matter as they may not be functioning as filter bacteria when they're in the water column.

I have no idea why your discus tank never cycled till you turned off your UV. The UV only affects what's in the tube at the time, and frankly that won't be very much in terms of your greater bacterial population. you might care to argue that you were never able to cycle the tank at all as all the bacteria that ever arrived at your tank to setup a bacterial culture were all ingested and removed by the UV. I would argue that's incredibly unlikely statistically and that the chances of that happening are in the 1 to some billions, if not more.

I do not feel I have to prove a great deal here, but I am interested to see reputable references to this. It does not make sense to me. If I set up a deep sand bed, and try to do aerobic and anoxic filtration in that, do you think that is affected by my having a UV attached to a tankwater loop potentially some meters away?

 

[discus4everGrl]

Don't forget that alot of people attach their uv's to their caninster filters which often have the potential to pump the whole tanks water capacity through a uv sterilizer 5-10 times an hour.

Interesting arguement really. I don't think I care anymore though. The bottom line in anything that involves science is, unless it has been tested none of us are so smart as to see what happens at the microscopic level.

 

[discus4everGrl]

Okay - here is a quote from an article that one of the moderators recommended to someone else on this site who was considering a uv, which is from the drsfosterandsmith website on uv sterilizers. The full link is on the bottom.

"Operating Guidelines
While UV sterilizers usually do no harm, do not use one when you first cycle your aquarium, as it may kill beneficial bacteria before they attach to the bio-media or gravel. Also, many medications can be "denatured" by the UV light, so the sterilizer should be turned off when using medications, especially chelated copper treatments. The UV light will "break" the bond of the chelating agent, and the aquarium will have a sudden, lethal concentration of ionic copper. "

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?acatid=423&aid=440