New Tank Syndrome???

[eagles250]

Hello,
Im new to all this so bear with me. I have a 10g tank, no live plants, and only 2 platies as starter fish. Im having a bit of trouble with my ammonia levels. I filled the tank and conditioned the water with Prime. after a week with just the water in the tank i added the two fish. during the 1st week w/ the fish in the tank i was using Stability. After about a week i went to the pet store to get new fish and have my water tested, they said the ammonia levels were to high to add fish just yet. levels were a little over 2 ppm. I added a bio-max amonia remover bag to the filer(at the suggestion of the fish store). went back a week later to have water tested again and the level didnt change. i was told to add Bio-spira and give it a few days(this was saturday). well, i just had my water tested again tonight and no signifigant change in amonia levels. i asked if i should do a water change he said no, that it would work against the bio-spira. so again he told me to wait a few more days. he seems to think its just a stubborn case of new tank syndrome. i think this is causing a problem with one of our fish. he just sits on the bottom in the corner of the tank and is breathing heavy. fins are not clamped and he is still eating(tho not as much as before). the other fish seems to be the picture of health tho. are these two things related? any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated!! i dont want to lose a fish!

 

[Avalon]

Sounds like your fish is stressed, possibly due to elevated Ammonia or Nitrite levels. While your LFS store clerks appear to be providing useful advice, things in the aquatic world aren't so cut & dried. X product doesn't always yield X results. Currently, a couple of the best things you can do are water changes and very light feeding. Change 30-40% of your water daily or semi-daily; this lowers the toxin levels and provides your fish with clean, well oxygenated water. Feed your fish lightly (3 flakes each) only once per day for now; fish do not require multiple daily feedings and excess food leads to excess wastes & toxins. What goes in must come out! Give the tank at least two weeks in order for bacteria to establish. Only change your filter pad when absolutely necessary--when the water flow is severely impeded--as it harbors a ton of beneficial bacteria. Lastly, have patience and when in doubt, do a water change! Be sure not to shock your fish doing so by keeping water temps similar.

 

[eagles250]

Thanks!! i have backed off the feedings from daily to every few days, and the amount each time. I will take on doing a water change tomorrow. in the short time since ive posted he has moved to hovering mid-level in the tank, which is more then he has been doing for the past few days. ive read about cleaning the gravel too, about how often should that be done?

 

[Avalon]

ive read about cleaning the gravel too, about how often should that be done?

With 2 fish? Maybe like once or twice per year. The substrate plays a vital role in biological filtration, as it harbors a significant amount of beneficial bacteria. Disturb it as little as possible. You may use a siphon to hover above the gravel and suck the debris away from the surface, but I would not "deep clean" any more than 2-3 times per year, unless you have a heavy fish load.

 

[eagles250]

woke up this morning and he was dead changing the water tonight!! would using purified water in place of tap be harmful? even if we still treat it?

 

[Lotus]

woke up this morning and he was dead changing the water tonight!! would using purified water in place of tap be harmful? even if we still treat it?

Yes, it would. Treated tapwater is just fine for fish.

 

[MissFishy]

You first need to read the stickies in this forum on tank cycling. That will explain what is supposed to happen to your tank as it "cycles" itself. It sounds like your fish store clerk means well, but really doesn't know what they're talking about. While cycling a tank with fish, you need to be doing 25% water changes at LEAST every other day, preferably every day. This keeps the ammonia levels tolerable for your fish. Too high ammonia = dead fish. Tap water is fine for water changes, just make sure to add water conditioner to any water you add to the tank. Eventually you should buy a siphon to clean the gravel and do your water changes. Unfortunately, you wasted your money on the bio-spira. Your ammonia levels were already too high when you added it, thus the ammonia probably killed any useful bacteria you would have gotten from it. That's too bad since your fish store should have known that, I'd ask for a refund, that stuff is expensive where I live. Bio-spira can be used to "instantly" cycle a tank for fish, but in order for it to work, it must have been stored refridgerated and the tank must be clear of ammonia. Also, don't worry about "ammonia clear" or whatever your store is telling you to buy, just do the water changes regularly.

In short, 25% water changes once a day for the next couple days, feed every other day, make sure your temp is 76-80, and keep taking your water to the store to get it tested, or better yet, just buy your own test kit, and don't buy any more stuff from the fish store that they say you "need," their job is to sell stuff, and so far looks like they've wasted your money. Ask here for people that have been there, done that. Good luck and keep posting!

 

[eagles250]

Thanks for the help/advice!!! will start doing 25% water changes daily till the weekend and go purchase a test kit. quite a learning curve here...

 

[Yukilovesfish]

Hang in there eagles250...

I know how discouraging it can be when you lose a fish

Definitely continue doing the water changes and be sure that once the ammonia levels reach zero that you continue doing your water changes EVERY week. I would recommend checking the board rather than getting advice from your LFS. I've wasted a ton of $ in the past on things I didn't really need...like MissFishy said many times they're just trying to sell you something.

 

[FroggyFox]

I would siphon with a gravel vac every time you clean and clean the debris that falls in between the gravel. Leaving that gunk in there can cause a .25ppm level of nitrites in your tank and if you dont have live plants that is not good. If you dont have a UGF then your gravel doesn't do much as far as filtration goes, most of your bacteria is in your filter media, on the filter itself etc. SOME bacteria colonizes on the porus surfaces of the gravel, but you will not harm it by vaccuming it and keeping the tank clean...no matter what your stocking level is at.

Sorry to hear about your rough start...but as others have said we all have to start somewhere. I agree there is really great information in the beginner stickies at the top of the beginner forum...I'd suggest reading through those.

 

[Grumpy_Marine]

While cycling a tank with fish, you need to be doing 25% water changes at LEAST every other day, preferably every day. This keeps the ammonia levels tolerable for your fish.

Ok i am new as well.. but have found contradicting guidance. My LFS instructed me that i was wrong in changing my water on my new tank. Here is situation:

I set up new tank all ready just no fish. It sat like that for two days then we went and bought two danios. Left it like that for two weeks. The water had an amonia odor so bad that we could smell it walking into the apartment. So i did the smart thing i changed the water. Smell was gone, water cleared up.... thought all was well. Went and bought new fishes (two guppies). Next day one guppie dies without warning. I thought it was NTS but nope it was due to amonia levels i was told. So i said should i get ammo carb and such... I was told no. His reasoning and answer is this: You destroyed your bio cycle when you did the water change. It is best to set up tank add the fish and let the cycle run through until complete. Which could take 4-6 weeks. Once cycle is complete then do water change.

So i am on my second tank which is set up and currently cycling with fish and doing well. Started to see a rise in nitrites yesterday finally. But should i be doing water changes every day or every other day? I have been cycling for just about 20-24 days now. ammonia levels are at 2.0ppm nitrite at .25 ppm nitrate 0ppm ph of 7.6. I just wondering what the final verdict is on water changes.

 

[eagles250]

Well I did my water change Tues, tested last night. ammonia levels are down considerably. pretty much at zero! my one fish is still doing great. i would like to get another fish or two this weekend, either more platies or a molly. something hardy. ive done a lot of reading and feel a little more comfortable in what im doing.

I was told the same thing as Grumpy_Marine about not changing the water for the first month or two by my LFS. that it would work against the cycling process....

 

[JWright]

"NTS" is simply another word for the high ammonia and nitrite levels that come with the cycling process.

You destroy nothing when you do a water change. The guppy died because they are a little more "fragile" than the danios. When you added the guppies, you increased the amount of ammonia being added to the tank, but the bio-filter hadn't yet caught up with the danios, let alone the added "weight" of the guppies. So, your ammonia levels spiked a bit higher, and the guppy succumbed. That right there is exactly what "NTS" is.

If you are doing a "non-fishless" cycle, you're going to have to do water changes during the cycle to keep your ammonia levels in check. I would say change the water whenever your ammonia or nitrite levels are over 2.0.

If your LFS told you that "dying from ammonia" and "new tank syndrome" are two different things, and that changing you water will destroy your bio-filter, it's time to find your advice elsewhere...

 

[Grumpy_Marine]

ok thanks guys, MY ammonia is at 2.0 right now so i will test today when i get home from work, then change 25-50 % of water correct?

 

[JWright]

I'd even go a little higher than that, in the 30-40% range.

Ammonia toxicity is a nasty thing, the lower the better.

As long as there is _any_ detectable ammonia, the bio-filter will continue to grow to consume it.

 

[MissFishy]

Yeah, whatever advice you got from the LFS that said not to change your water with fish in the tank and high ammonia levels pretty much just sentenced those fish to death. Danios are very very hardy during tank cycling, but it is cruel to let them linger in all that ammonia. Changing water will lower the ammonia levels while still allowing the bacteria time to grow. I would NOT suggest getting new fish so soon in your cycle. By adding new fish, you are increasing the ammonia load and therefore changing the cycle up. Wait until the tank is completely cycled, then add new fish one at a time. Don't let your fish store tell you "You can buy this product then add this many fish." It's BS, come here for advice from people that have been there, done that. Keep us updated.

 

[Grumpy_Marine]

Ok i got home and tested the water today. my amonia levels are at 4.0 my nitrite(second phase) is at .25 ppm. So the first phase is now complete and i am waiting for the last to start correct? I am going to change my water as directed. I will post test results monday after the water has been changed and adapted into tank for a few days. I have a 29 gallon tank with 4 guppies, 2 danios, 1 red tail shark, 1 pleco, 1 loach, 2 sissor tail rasonia(unsure of name now) They all appear to be fairing well and showing no signs of stress or discomfort.

 

[FroggyFox]

um I guess I dont know what you mean by first phase...the first part isn't complete until your ammonia levels drop to 0, but its closer since you have some nitrites. 4 is too high for your fish though I would do a water change immediately to get it down at least to the 1 range. You only need an hour or so for the water to mix and get a good reading after a water change.

probably scissor tail rasboras

 

[Grumpy_Marine]

probably scissor tail rasboras

that is what they are. What i meant by first phase was what your talking about but i was wrong... my brain is not good anymore for thinking only holding space...lol

I forgot about ammonia dropping to zero. So i am doing water change now. um... this will not remove the nitrites correct? But i agree i need to lower ammonia levels to save fish the undue stress.

 

[FroggyFox]

well if by first phase you meant that you have some bacteria turning ammonia to nitrite you are right Then you can just count the next step as when your ammonia drops to 0. Yes doing a water change will remove nitrites, but they're just as bad or worse for your fish than ammonia...not good in your tank, there will still be some though so bacteria will start to develop that turn nitrites into nitrates. The only "good" thing about seeing nitrites in your tank are that you know the cycle is progressing and ammonia is turning into nitrite. This is why a fish-in cycle takes longer than a fishless cycle because if there aren't any fish in the tank you can let the levels go as high as they want without doing water changes.