Odd behavior and then death? This is becoming a big problem...

[angel51431]

Okay I brought water to my lfs. Surprisingly, they actually had test kits! Meh, the guy kept telling me that nitrate was the same thing as ammonia... and then when he tested the water for nitrate he was looking at an ammonia colour chart that goes from yellow to blue... and then he was like "huh?! its turning orange!" And then he admitted that he never did a nitrate test before. You don't say...

Aaaanyway, you guys were right, I have nitrAtes - 20ish ppm (according to the nitrate chart, not the ammonia one, lol). Which doesn't sound like a tragic number, although I did do a 50% water change and a major filter cleanup yesterday. Guess I'll be tossing out my nitrate test kit then... ugh it was one of those $14 ones too...

Could it really be nitrates though? A whole bunch of fish dying at the same time from them? In that really weird flipping out way? I mean even if I had 40-50 ppm before the big water change, is that really a tragic number? "In the United States, drinking water may have nitrates as high as 40 ppm"

I also added a big pillow of carbon to my filter. Hopefully if this is chemical, it'll help. I didn't add any salt like I wanted to but I think I will.

Meh, and I just watched another one spaz. Ugh, I was *just* writing how none had died last night... and then I heard a splash, looked up and saw him floating paralyzed. @#$%^&!!! He didn't die, but he was limp and unresponsive for a minute or so... now he's shakily swimming again. but he's been doing that all of yesterday too - flipping out, going limp and then getting back to kinda-normal.

...well none others died since yesterday. Soooo what to do now? Another big big water change?

 

[Seleya]

20ish nitrates isn't anything to get excited about. Are you sure the fish don't thrash anytime except in the evening? Are you typically only in the room in the evening? Are any of the fish flashing? Are your cories acting normally -- not takng extra trips to the surface? How about fish which would normally be in the upper/middle sections sitting down by the substrate?

If it is indeed the algaefix, water changes and carbon should clear everything up. However, continue to examine every step of your fish care and what in the entire room has been changed since the onset of problems.

If you have access to a microscope, if you lose another fish, take scrapings of his slime coat and look under the microscope to check for parasites. Also, examine the body for abnomalities -- normal gills, fins, scales, body condition, etc.

 

[angel51431]

well like I said, I have one male that's been doing this spazzy thing all day yesterday and now today, and then recovering. Nothing's spooking him, he does it spontaneously. I've been observing the tank more or less all day from across the room. He's starting to look really frazzled, I doubt he's gonna stay around much longer. Heh desensitizing myself to this guy.

So right now I'm focusing on all the other fish. I haven't seen any other fish freak out. yet. *knock on wood*

My turquoise rainbow male that's left is flirting with some other rainbows - like chasing, nipping and flashing fins. They play along with him, so I guess he's happy about that big water change. Otherwise, no abnormalities. Other fish acting fine - cories are active, not surface breathing any more than normal (they rarely ever do), gourami is fine, tetras look normal. One snail active, the other hiding since yesterday.

 

[angel51431]

just a quick update...

the sickly frazzled male died last night after all.

BUT!

no new losses or freak outs since then! Phew! Knock on wood, hopefully my water cleared up and everyone else will be okay. Besides, everyone seems to enjoy the effects of the 50% water change, fish are flirting and the one of the snails is a lot more active (the other one seems to hate light). So seems we're back on track.

I just feel that all the colour is gone from my tank. All of my male boesemanis died, and one turquoise fella. Meh, these are expensive fish, too... I think I'll wait a while until i get any more.

 

[calico_]

do you keep a Co2 dispenser on at night?
if so, plants will release co2 at night, plus the co2 dispenser...and the fish will simply choke. nitrates at 20 are perfectly fine, that's not the probem.

 

[Fishywishy]

my understanding is you've did a 50% water change just before going in and testing the nitrates which came out at 20ppm. 20ppm by itself isn't a big deal, however, it makes you wonder what they were sitting at before the 50% water change when you started having your trouble. (wasn't there a 10% water change in there as well) I'm also noticing about 24-48 hours after doing this water change you're having 1 fish "freak out". Then another one freak out after another 50% water change. Still sounds like nitrate poisoning and in the case of the 50% water change nitrate shock.

Here's a pretty good (short...I like short) article about nitrate poisoning

Nitrate Poisoning

 

[angel51431]

calico, I do not have any co2 in the tank. I should, but I have a low pH and very soft water, so I'd be paranoid of a crash.

i did lose two fish after the 50% water change, but like the article said - "Once the symptoms are showing it is usually to late to save the fish." They had both already went through a few spastic stages before the water change. I didn't really expect it to save those two, they seemed pretty far gone already. I was more focused on the other fish and hoping that no one new would start showing signs, and they did not as of yet, thankfully.

Thank you for that article, very informative. Really, I had no idea that this is what nitrate poisoning was like, until recently. I assumed it would have been red gills and loss of colours and activity. I'll have to keep this in mind. And I have to get a new nitrate test kit, meh.

 

[cchase85]

my understanding is you've did a 50% water change just before going in and testing the nitrates which came out at 20ppm. 20ppm by itself isn't a big deal, however, it makes you wonder what they were sitting at before the 50% water change when you started having your trouble. (wasn't there a 10% water change in there as well) I'm also noticing about 24-48 hours after doing this water change you're having 1 fish "freak out". Then another one freak out after another 50% water change. Still sounds like nitrate poisoning and in the case of the 50% water change nitrate shock.

Here's a pretty good (short...I like short) article about nitrate poisoning

Nitrate Poisoning

Wouldn't it be probably 40 ppm before the 50% water change, if it was 20 ppm after?

 

[angel51431]

yeah, 40-50, since there was a 50% wter change one day and a 15% water change the day before.

But googling it, I really can't get good stats about nitrate problems. Every site I find seems to contradict.

"it has been shown that levels of up to 1000 ppm may be required to cause death" - The Nitrogen Cycle - ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, fishless cycling - well that's a pretty damn huge number..

"Nitrite/Nitrate poisoning has the same symptoms as ammonia poisoning," - Diseases that affect Tropical Freshwater Fish - would have fooled me!

"Colors of the fish become more intense or really bright, panting, and hanging just below the water surface" - Tropical fish Diseases, causes cures and prevention - sounds about half right and half like oxygen deprivation...

Heh well googling didn't help. So anyway, what's a safe range for nitrates? Some sites say 25 ppm, some say 1000 ppm.

 

[homebunnyj]

I just really can't see the nitrate poisoning theory as being a valid concern. I mean, I've seen some very poorly maintained tanks which would obviously have some real nitrate problems that were never plagued with fish spazzing out and dying. Besides, from what I've read, I think your nitrates would have to be through the roof to be a cause of sudden fish death. I can see constant levels of nitrates in the range of fifty and over, over a length of time, making fish more susceptible to illness. That's what you usually see with a poorly maintained tank-- fish just kind of sicken and die one by one... bacterial infections, fungus, different things... not this spazzing thing you describe.

Have you done as Seleya suggested-- done a really good, close visual inspection, taken a scraping of the slime coat and checked it for parasites?

Would you consider doing something like thirty to forty percent water changes a couple times a week, just to keep the nitrates down low and to also more quickly remove any vestiges of anything toxic that may have caused the problem? Are you using carbon in your filter? If so, is it fresh?

Plant people correct me, but could a blackout do some good with the algae, while also possibly limiting stress on the fish from turning the lights off and on? At least it might eliminate the lights switching off and on as an issue.

This is an interesting problem, I'd love to hear that you got to the bottom of the cause.

 

[angel51431]

homebunnyj - that's the same reason I'm kinda having trouble believing in nitrate poisoning. I've seen much worse tanks out there, hell I've had some very poor ones myself (mainly in my newbie days when I was a kid and didn't know much about water changes or filters). And I've never seen such a thing either. And, no, I haven't taken any slime coat scraping - I don't have a microscope. But looking at the fish as soon as they die, it looks like some sort of internal organ malfunction that just shuts them down. On the outside they look fresh and healthy. Seems that the brain/heart or some other important organ is what does it, especially since they freak out and spaz.

And yet... i guess it could be nitrate. The symptoms sound more or less plausible. Rainbowfish are tough fish but the boesemanis are more sensitive than the australians. *shrug*

I don't know what to think. But I haven't seen any casualties since. I'm watching the tank closely. And I put in a fresh pillow of carbon into the filter when I did my 50% water change. And yes, I'm willing to do further water changes to hopefully clear any remains of whatever is in the water. Honestly, I'm still willing to blame the AlgaeFix. Since it didn't wipe out my algae right away, I guess I'd been using it for a much longer period than necessary. For about three weeks (although I've been skipping doses due to forgetfulness).

 

[Seleya]

Here's to hoping your problem is solved. This is such a puzzling case.

 

[ccookie49]

I realize that this is a very old thread, but it was the closest thing I could find when I did a google search. I have a rainbow fish in a 36 gallon tank all by himself, except for a few snails that have been in there for well over a year or two. This is an established tank and he's been in there for about four or five years now. It had been a community tank, but he used to terrorize my live bearers and I chose not to restock...basically I'm waiting for him to die and then I am going to take the tank in a different direction. But I don't actually WANT him to die . Anyway, tonight I came into the room with the tank and he started swimming around like crazy and jumping and splashing at the top of the tank. Then he went silent and I thought he was dead...he was just sitting at the top near the filter bar. I went in with the net, and he took off, clearly still alive. He tore around the tank for another minute and then settled back into his routine. I checked the water parameters, and it looks like everything is at 0, although this tank has really required no maintenance, so I'm not 100% sure that the test kits are still good (they are within their expiration dates though). Water temps are ok, tank has a canister filter and an extra hanging filter that I just stick some filter floss in and change it out weekly. I do minimal water changes, no plants, it's really very basic.

I found this thread and it seems like the exact same behavior. I'm wondering if the OP is still around and ever found out more information, or if anyone else has any idea what is going on.

Thanks,
Christine

 

[BluePsion]

I have had several fish die this way and I believe it is due to the water being too soft. It happened to me just as described here--fish darting around, going still, eventually dying--when I was foolish enough to use RO water without treating it first to replace minerals. Because of this I believe it is some kind of neurological disorder caused by lack of minerals in the water. Has anyone else discovered anything?

 

[Snappypac]

My female Betta just died. I came home and was lying on top on her heater, looked dead and when I touched her she went crazy like she was having a seizure. I was going to put her in new water in a bowl but she died a few minutes later. Mouth open at the bottom of the tank. She's in a jar and still the same position. All my levels were fine, ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrotes PH was a little high but they are used to this. I have 4 different tanks. All had water changes just a few days ago. The only thing I could think of is that I put a plastic plant in but it was seasoned and used in several tanks in the past. I wish I did have a microscope. I looked with a magnaflying glass and she looks perfect. I have a microscope at work so may keep her in water in a jar till then. I don't want to freeze her because it would kill the parasites if that is truly what it was. She was almost a year old and you could pet her. What a bummer. And yesterday a smaller bird with a big bill ate all my Koi- 13 of them. Left me 2 goldfish that are now petrified. It wasn't a Blue Herron much smaller. It's been a bad day for fish around here. I will repost if the microscope works. If no parasites maybe it was something internal going haywire.