Poll - Natural Decor

[wayne]

Catfishmike - live rock - apart from the fact most is 'cultivated', how many tonnes a year are exported. Now how many tons are used (usually after dynamiting) to create a runway for tourists, or to build a house, whatever. Frankly live rock exports for aquaria are 'p****ing in the wind' compared to these uses.
Live rock collection,should and could be a sustainable resource and source of income for local peoples if it's managed properly (without dynamiting, overcollection)

 

[madhippoz]

I think there's a difference between rock and wood, and live rock. Rock and wood are more plentiful, and also more quickly replaced by nature. Live rock on the other hand as mentioned takes a lot longer to regenerate. It all comes down to common sense. Like catfishmike mentions, don't go tearing up your local natural area's looking for the perfect rock, and when you do find one, don't take another 20 like it. Heh just be a little frugal, I think a simpler, cleaner looking tank looks much better than a jam packed crowded one any day.

On the, god put it here for us to use kick, well god didn't put anything here, because god doesn't exist . My personal belief yes. Man is just a fluke, and while we have the ability to misuse our natural resources, it doesn't mean that we should. Part of our benefit from the evolutional luck of the draw is the ability to reason and question, and conserve. Rather than just being a big ole resource gobbling, nature wrecking machine .

I agree Wayne, if managed properly it could be used and be beneficial for the local economy without causing permanent damage to the local eco-system. But human nature is sneaky . If you limited the amount of live rock able to be harvested each year, availability would drop through the floor. Which would make it that much more lucrative for a live rock poacher if you will, to go out and harvest it on the sly, and be able to charge even MORE for it.

 

[Spunky]

It the same way I feel when people question my veganisum saying "Well don't you believe God put animals here soly for human use" and I say NO they are liveing beings just like us, they have the right to live a full life.

I disagree with what you say AmazonTankz. Don’t worry I will not turn it into a religious debate (which is why I not saying much) I just wanted to add my two cents worth too… Animals are here under the rule of man; therefore we can do anything we want to them.
Genesis 1:28 “'Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that move along the ground.””

We can be Hitler if we want and destroy what we rule over, or we can be wise about it. Many have already mentioned about the wise use of it, so I do not need to add more.

spunky

 

[AmazonTankz]

Originally posted by Spunky

Genesis 1:28 “'Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that move along the ground.””

spunky

See this I believe is all a matter of inturpretation(sp?). "Rule over" this frase does not tell me that we can do what ever we please to animals. It tells me that we(in a since Rule) are the care takers of animals. We have thte responsibleity to preserve their habitat and and make sure that they are thriving, since they have no voice and many can not help themselves. I think the writers of the bible(witch is there own inturpertation of its own right) Ment the word "rule" to me "responsibliity" they used a lot of dofferent words back then in a lot of different ways from now. So how are we supposed to make a decsition like that on interpretation alone? What about morals??

 

[silversp0rt]

taking from nature is fine. end of thread! catfishmike, you like to start these debates all the time. *laughingc

 

[catfishmike]

hey anything that involves the destuction of live marine habitats is bad including runways and hotels and explotation of the local populace because tourists have big dollars but thats another story.and yes wanye i think your right that locar people should harvest and profit from live rock as live rock is vital to so many things marine related.but i think it is important that the aquarium hobby as a whole sends a message that we are concerned about the enviroment and culturing specimens for the hobby intead of fish collected under less than desierable methods like cyanide poisoning etc.and yes silversport i do love a good debate,sorry i can't help myself.

 

[Spunky]

oh, i agree with you AmazonTankz about the responsiblity, you said it very well. I think that with our responsibilty to rule over them, we are giving the power to do want we want, but that does not mean we should do just whatever.

We can inturpret the word "rule" in many way, but in the end we see what we should do the same:

We have thte responsibleity to preserve their habitat and and make sure that they are thriving, since they have no voice and many can not help themselves.

AmazonTankz

 

[madhippoz]

Who cares what the bible says. Honestly, are we so devoid of a logical reason why its bad to over-harvest from our own environment, that we have to go back to the bible to define what we should do? It boggles my mind that people do this. I realize its part of people's religions and that's why they refer to it, but really, I don't need Joseph or Moses to tell me not to wreck the environment, or that I as sentient man have a responsibility to care for the planet I live on, its common sense!!!

 

[Spunky]

I care what the Bible says. It is not part of my religion, it is a part of my faith... big difference. if you do not understand what i am trying to say PM me(goes for anyone, not just madhippoz.) then we can stick to what this post is about here. Besides neither, Joseph or Moses said it, God did.

I think it is common sense to take care of the world too. But if everyone had this common sense, we would not have extinct species, dieing rain forests... and on the list can go. I do not think one person can say they have not done something that hurt the environment (ex: littering) I know I can not say that.

Maybe littering a little here and there is an extreme example, but it can all add up, just like taking rocks from a lake. If everyone did it we would have rockless lakes (good for our feet, bad for the fish) and trash would be everywhere but the trash cans (makes a easy job for the garbage man but horrid place for our kids to play.)

 

[madhippoz]

I understand perfectly what your trying to say. I just don't see why we need to draw a line back to biblical times to debate why we should look after the environment more. Heh I realize this whole sub-context of this thread came from AmazonTankz comment about her Veganism, and how people tried to argue her against it. You expanded on that comment, so please don't make it sound too much like i'm the one taking this off topic. My point was merely that religion, or the bible or belief in god doesn't have anything to do with this particular debate, and i couldn't understand why people were trying to draw those connections.

Thanks for the offer of taking this off into PM, but no thanks, I don't really believe its possible to disprove people's own faith to them, nor would I want too, if you believe fine. I just don't think it has any bearing on a discussion about the environment, and whether or not to put a real rock in your Aquarium . "And on the 8,132 day, God said, "Thoust must be Frugal wenst putting real rocks within said confines of your Aquaria!" and it was so. But man forgot the wise words of god, and disobeyed him, until man was brought back to the truth of god by an Internet forum about fishkeeping". Ok I'm being a jerk now, I'll shut up .

 

[madhippoz]

As for the other part, I agree, its a cliche statement, but very true. Common sense is far from common.

 

[adamj]

on the 20th day charlton heston said " AND THOU SHALT BE... SAVED!"

 

[AmazonTankz]

Yes I do agree to an extent with madhippoz about the need for us to link things back to the bible to make them good or bad. I feel that people who want to read and live by the bible should do just that. But we need to look into ourselves for many ansewers instead of being told what bad and good. I think we all have the abilitly to do so, but many times its gets interuped with what other people tell us. Example:

Hmmm, do I feel bad about inhumaley treating this animal? Maybe so but the bible says we can do what ever we pleas with them, so I guess i should not feel bad.

See what I mean?? It's not right.

 

[Spunky]

madhippoz-
I was not trying to say that you were getting off topic any more than I was, madhippoz, sorry if it sounded that way.

Argue her against veaganism? Naw, I see nothing wrong in not eating animals and such. I just disagreed with the reason behind it. I have a Christian friend who is vegan, he just has differnt reasons for what he does than what she does.

And my pming me thing was not to prove or disprove faith, it was just if you did not understand what I was saying about my faith, then I would explain it then, I just did not want to lead the post more off topic.

I would not say you were a jerk. I got a little laugh out of it no matter the intentions. "And on the 8,133 day, God said, "can't we all just get along?"

AmazonTankz-

Hmmm, do I feel bad about inhumaley treating this animal? Maybe so but the bible says we can do what ever we pleas with them, so I guess i should not feel bad.

maybe i understand wrong, but it sounds like you are saying that the Bible tells us to go ahead and mistreat animals. Or that i say that the Bible says it...

Is that what the bible is about? Doing whatever we want with no thought of consequenses? Quick answer: NOPE!

What i have been trying to say (which i thought i have been) is that we need to take care of the animals, treat them with respect. I said it once and i will say it again, I agree with you on that aspect.

----
I did not go searching for a post to tell everyone my faith, i just comment on what i read. If you do not like it, ignore it. Just cause you have differnt views does not mean I have to keep silent. (i am not taking offense, getting mad or trying to make anyone else mad, i am just stating why i say what i say.)

 

[madhippoz]

Argue her against veaganism?

She mentioned that other people have in the past argued with her about her Veganism using that, "well god says we rule over all animals" quote. Didn't mean you were arguing that with her, sorry about the misundertanding there.

I agree with you that the bible doesn't state obviously that because you rule over animals, however you want to take that, it doesn't mean you're allowed to abuse them, I think we all agree on that. I just find the whole thing way off base. Not only were we originally talking about rocks and wood in aquariums, and this quote seems to deal with animals. I just wish people didn't fall back on the bible to sometimes find a quote or a passage that seems to agree with whatever specific thing their arguing, I just don't think it applies that way, and in this case in particular. I'm not accusing you of doing that, but obviously people do, do it. There's no reason our own common sense cannot come up with meaningful answers here to these debates. This is my personal opinion however, and I of course agree that you are entitled to yours. I'm just entitled to disagree with you is all .

 

[Spunky]

This is my personal opinion however, and I of course agree that you are entitled to yours. I'm just entitled to disagree with you is all

well said my friend

 

[madhippoz]

Heh nice to have a reasonable exchange and debate on varying ideas without name calling and other such high emotional outbursts, for a change.