Should the aquarium hobby be regulated?

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#21
Just because the shop posts the animal care information doesn't necessarily mean the consumer would read it. I worked for Petco once, we had flyers I would hand out to customers who were considering purchasing fish. A single side page of a piece of paper that said "tetras need clean water" etc for most of the major family groups. I found these pieces of paper in the trash more often than not. Also, again, those information sheets produced by corporate are promoting the sale, and make the information on them so watered down as to be false. "oscars are easy to care for and make great pets" Yeah sure, but not in a 10 gallon tank, but they won't put that on there because a fish tank is an impulse buy, and most people go for the 10 and the puppy-dog eyes of the oscar. Money talks ya know.

Again I think I stated before that releasing a store from liability would probably be a bad thing, especially in the case of exotics. It is the consumer that keeps the place honest if it wants to maintain business. Lets say I sell you a snake, you sign a liability waiver, then two days later you have a dead snake. Did it get sick in your care or did I sell you an unhealthy animal? If I sold you an unhealthy animal, aren't you going to feel cheated out of the $100+ you spent on all the necessarities to keep it healthy, as well as angry that your child's favorite animal just died so you have to now go through the agony of explaining the afterlife to them? I'm up $100 and you have a crying kid on your hands. Sure, you may not shop at my store anymore, but there is a sucker born a minute, other people will buy from me. I sell unhealthy creatures to unsuspecting people. I don't have to pay for animal care because I know the animals are sick, and people pay me to give them sick animals. It's win-win for the dishonest shop if they are not made liable for the health of the animals they sell.

Most LFS have at least a two week waiting period, which is why IT IS IMPORTANT TO HAVE A VET RESEARCHED THAT WILL TREAT YOUR ANIMAL BEFORE YOU PURCHASE ONE!! Especially with exotics because there are so very few exotic care professionals out there!! You purchase your reptile, and within the first two weeks of having it, take it to the vet. If the vet says the animal is ill and requires care, you can take the vet bill to the store and lemon laws will make the store pay for the vet care. Hell, you can hire a vet as a consultant on the purchase. They will give the prospective purchase a physical exam before you even buy it, and if they don't give the animal a bill of health, then why buy it in the first place?

Most people are unaware of the "lemon laws" of their states. A breeder or animal seller is repsponsible for selling a healthy animal. If that animal proves unhealthy within a certain time frame after puchase (usually 14 days) then the individual who sold the animal must either pay for the medical care or refund the purchase price and take the animal back. This usually applies to puppy and kitten breeders, or livestock, but I think many have been amanded to include exotic purchases as well, or are generalized to inculde all animal puchases.

Fact is, most folk are not going to take that $12.99 ball python to a $75 vet visit for a wellness check. We had a guinea pig come into our clinic for an ear infection, the office visit alone was $50, not including the antibiotic 'script or the ear cleanser, and the $25 medical waste fees for the injection it got in house. That's a whole lot of money to spend on a $10 guinea pig.

So stores have to be held liable for the health of the creatures they sell, there is no way around it. Consumer protection laws are made to protect people from being cheated. Exotics won't show they are sick until they are knocking at death's door, so it would be so easy to get away with cheating people on that score. Especially people who don't know what a sick exotic look like. Selling healthy animals is just good for business as well, good for building a reputation and keeping people returning to your store. If more stores thought this way, they would find they do much better.

Unfortunately animal care is costly and expesnive. LFSs are trying to make a profit, not spend money on fancy filtration units or skyrocketing water and electricty bills, or even paying rent on their facility. Many places barely break even. So if they are not making a profit, they cut corners, and unfortunately the animals suffer for it.

And the consumer is just as equally to blame for simply not doing their homework.

The pet trade is just simply a no win situation.
~~Colesea
 

exodon

Medium Fish
Jan 31, 2003
99
0
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58
western canada
www.myfishtank.ca
#22
yup...really it's up to us...

MyFishTank(R) is my store. It is Freshwater/ Marine Aquarium Store in Western Canada that simply caters to the aquarist.

NOTE:
(We are NOT affiliated with, nor do we speak for MY FISH TANK.NET)

When I started this hobby, before the store, I found myself seeking only easy, but decent fish at first. I took my time, made my mistakes, became more experienced, ( ha ! who hasn't written a story like this...) then I wanted the more exotic.
Exotic was hard to find as most pet stores simply wouldn't take a chance on bringing in anything out of the usual gourami, tetra, cory. Living on an island, meant an additional 80$ toll trip for a 16$ fish, that is, if we wanted anything out of the ordinary.

So I opened a store of my own. I found the kewl fish. I learned what it took to keep it alive. And then I taught my customers how to do it. After 6 years, I have an established client base that I consider fairly loyal. (but we all know that the real hobbist...
wants it good, fast, AND cheap...so..) When it comes to the fish, and their health, the true aqurium people end up in my store.
I firmly believe that the key is to teach people.
Aquariums are works of scientific marvals.
They are fabrications of Art - both blended to mimic Nature.
This isn't something you "get" over night, or in one issue of AQUARIUM magazine. Experience has been my best teacher as I began
this business before the internet became as "great" as it is.
And personally, I'd rather have the true "hobbist" in my store than that person who - "wants a tank, but like, ya know those kind that...ya don't havta clean?"..."Can you get those?"
...If I could get those....
(theres no such thing,lady. ...heh)

Anyway, my point is that as a Hobbist, I have to protect my hobby. I do that by purchasing from people who are decent, reliable, trustworthy, and knowledgeable.
How do you know? Look at their fish. Look at their tanks. What do they feed? What do they use for filters? Why?
Where do they get thier fish from?Why? Why? Why?
I have to educate my self as well as rely on the knowledge I get from my dealer. Dealers can't possibly know all, and if they think they do...they are full of ...
Especially wholesale dealers. They are more in it for the buck than one cares to imagine. Fortunatly, the care for these creatures start at the retail level. Hobbyists that actually enjoy selling aquariums.
Be loyal to those that really care about the fish.
Your retail dealer should be able to solve trubble for you, and give you diagnosis on dead or sick fish , water testing, and just plain old decent product. Advice is supposed to be free, but as a retailer, we like a little loyalty in return..

As a hobbist, that is what I look for.
As a business, the same. Only in addition, I teach my customers...what they need to know, (and of course some useless trivia... ) to make the hobby a success. I encourage creativity, and experimentation, ...I just encourage.

I Don't guarentee fish. Not one. Never. Nope. Sorry.
(but Petcetera does... uhhuh)
Why?
- 1. I don't usually have to.

- 2. The variables that can occure between the moment that fish was "happily swimming around in my tank" and the time "travelling and being introduced to a new uncertain environment - your tank"... is unimaginable. I don't care how well you take care of your tank...it is impossible for me or anyone to guarentee 100% that that fish will live the transport and the climatization.

- 3. Selling live animals with life guarentees does not promote responsible fishkeeping.
I say, I say again...
Selling live animals with life guarentees does not promote responsible fishkeeping.

It says to you, and your neightbor, who shouldn't even be allowed to have a plant... that
"No matter what you do to this animal, no matter what happens ...if it dies...we'll give ya another one."
Any volunteers for that position? (The animal that is)
Therefore, a guarentee on live animals is simply a form of sales capturing techniques. Don't be a sheep.

I say buyer beware. Check it out before you buy it. What ever it is. If it needs an xray, and thats what it takes to ensure you are getting quality..( not applying to fish here) then do it.
If you need to sit and watch that perticular fish in the store for a week to ensure its health, then fight that spontanious impulse to take it home now...and leave it there.
If you just gotta have it, and cant wait... then live on the edge.
Do what it takes, just be smart about your buying.

I don't carry Camins or any animals that people shouldn't ....ahhh never mind. Anyone that delibertly offers just anyone a &^$$# alligator, should have his business lic. revoke and run outta business.
98% of the people who want an Alligator as a pet - again, should'nt have pets, just as,

85% of the people who ask me for pirahna I can stereotype before they ask. As a business....I protect my hobby by protecting PIRAHNA.. from these idiots. Not for sale.

Ive considered a lobby for regulation on the industry's retail level, to the degrees of permits and licencing, mandatory training (water chem/diseases/general animal care), etc.
All this would have to have a governing body. and ... yada yada..


Again, my point is... that lobbys, bandwagons, organizations, regulations... it all adds up to less that its worth. It has it's value, and generally, it helps, but its not enuff, not soon enuff...

The true fight for the cause starts with you...the hobbist.

There.... thanks fer lettin' me vent.
Happy fishin'
:)
 

Imp

Small Fish
Jan 23, 2003
18
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0
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#23
I completely wish I had the power to not have a guarantee.
More often than not my frustration comes from the fact that people who have no right owning fish are constantly coming back to make good on their guarantee, and most of the time they will not listen to reason and take our advice. I can't express the number of times I've heard "I'll try it and if it doesn't work I'll just bring it back" or "I have 14 days, right?". Yesterday I had a customer tell me that the oscar she had in a 29 gallon tank would "just have to wait" for a bigger tank because she couldn't afford it right now. Couldn't afford it! Why the heck did she get the fish in the first place??
The fact of the matter is there are any number of people who will come into the hobby not wanting to spend any money, and generally of the mind that "they're just fish". No amount of prodding or explaining will convince them to be better keepers. As I said, people fall nito a limited number of categories. Because of this, and the fact that retail outlets sell to these people, fish retailers get a bum rap.
LFS has dead fish or is "killing their fish"? What percentage of fish that you have kept in your entire time in the hobby have you lost for one reason or another, and would that number not jump dramatically if you were keeping a number exponentially higher? Again, I can't speak for all fish shops, because there are certainly dishonest and disreputable ones out there, and they have earned their status. But for people to jump on all retailers and act as though they are ruining the industry and the hobby... Don't judge what you don't understand.
And then ask yourself how many of your fish you've bought from the people you blame, and where you started in the hobby.

Imp
 

Jan 19, 2003
448
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58
Stavanger, Norway
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#24
Good discussion ! - Imp, as I have said before, I've been to some real hooror shops in my time, and I personally think retailers sohuld take some responsibility here.
Things to note from this weeks Practical Fishkeeping
60+ % of people polled on their website thought it was irresponsible to sell these fish.

Maidenhead Aquatics , which I tihnk is the biggest shop chain in the UK will no longer offer for sale red tail cats, pacu and something else

Shops can ask the Trafe Organisation for stickers saying 'This fish gets BIG!' What an excellent idea.
 

Imp

Small Fish
Jan 23, 2003
18
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#27
Horror shops abound, unfortunately. I've heard of large chains actually deliberately bleaching their entire system to kill off unsold fish and make room for new arrivals.
I'm not saying that shops should not take responsibility. Unfortunately, the nature of the retail world is such that you are generally underpaid for what you do, and, at the very least, the pay that is offerred is not substantial enough to attract the truly knowledgeable and the truly skilled. People don't work in the fish business as a career, and when they do it's considered a rarity.
Stickers and disclaimers would be great, but for the most part people still ascribe to the idea that fish will only grow to the size of the tank they are in. They don't understand about overcrowding or stunting and what it will do to the fish. Even telling them frequently evokes a "Well, I'll get a bigger tank eventually" (read: you're just trying to play with me or control what I can buy and what I can't, or you just don't know).
When it really comes down to it, that's why I like my fish a whole lot better than I like people.

Imp
 

exodon

Medium Fish
Jan 31, 2003
99
0
0
58
western canada
www.myfishtank.ca
#29
imp - horror

(imp)

hey...:)

Stories of bleaching a system are just that, these days.
People who do that generally have an infected system
and more often than not, the fish are beyond nursing back to health.
It is, indeed unfortunate that some facilities, shops, etc... allow it to get that out of hand... sheer neglect or ignorance.
Working in this industry one becomes subject to speculation and rumors, especially when one tends to shine in a certain area.

Most stores have something they do best....most pet store owners have some part of animal keeping - that drives them. Unfortunatly again, money becomes an issue
and they either go out of business, or they become moneymongers and become ... a "pet store".
Specialization in a specific, or couple of types of animals, tends to draw a more dedicated crowd of consumer. It allows for a degree of professionalism by subject dedication. I'm learning from my customers everyday. I have little experiments going on in thier tanks. Its fun... :) ( some don't even know it..) heh.JK heh.
I take my customers very seriously, and my hobby seriously, and sometimes my customer relations is repaired by my staff... heh.
But mostly, I like aquarium people. They are creative, open, flexable, somewhat scientific, or seriously artsy. They come from all walks, and many spend more on this hobby than others they may have. We are fortunate to have a University in town that sports an Aqua-Culture Program, so there is a stream of students that all have a genuine interest, wanting to explore.
They do some kewl funky excperiments on fish breeding up there... ( all in good faith) .
But, our hobby is seriously environmental. Whether we collect wild caught, or raise captive fish, we mess or ( impact ) nature somehow, some time. Sometimes good and sometimes bad.
We have to learn and act on it.
Its easly to know a little about alot, but when it comes to the care of a life, a dependant, ...an animal... you as its "guardian" should know everything you can. Finding such places that can, and will offer you good solid advice is difficult, but they are out there.
It's funny...cuz I have a couple customers in Sask., Canada, Oregon USA, Vancouver Canada, and we are but a humble store... :) BTW. My shop is on Vancouver Island, in Nanaimo, BC
They remain loyal and usually visit once a year.


And as for people, (in general) they will always be people. Dogs will alway be beaten, and loved, and cats terrorized,and cuddled, and fish flushed, and Leuy the Iguana with always find his end on the hardtop... its morbid I know, but ... for the next 50 years, people will be the same people.

It is really difficult Imp to get people to understand the fish.
and how to care for them. they don't take it as serious as some,
( i don't take it as serious as most,)
or they don't have the "passion' / empathy / callitwhatuwill.
We cannot blame them for the lack of enthusiam they have,
but rather the logic they used to actually believe they should care for such an animal.
I try to educate people morally. I get them to understand that

"the little creature in the glass box actually needs you.
That it cant live without "YOU"... "
"It will DIE without YOU. (poke.poke)"
(im having this conversation with a grown woman...in my store after much debate...)

"well...the book says I can feed it once a week...why would they say that if..." blablablabla...
"Do you have children...?"

...anyway... I think its kewl to talk with people here and its nice to meet ya'll.
Nite - long day.





I tend to find embarrasment is an effective tool for those customers who just aren't getting it.
Try making a serious issue of their water test. Give them the "eye" when you present them with a 2.6 ppm reading on the ammonia ( NH3 ) chart. People tend to pay attention when a. under peer pressure
b. when its costing them.

The real way to get people to respect fish, and want to learn about them...?

Tell them they cant have it.



Rob
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#30
Tell them they can't have it! Oh wow, your crowd must be more understanding than mine! Then again, I work in NY, the "I want it now and nobody will tell me otherwise" state. Let me relay a story.

One evening while I was tending tanks, a gentleman and his girly-friend approach me with an intrest in oscars. They were friendly enough, so I was friendly with them. We chatted, and the man told me how he had a 55 gallon tank (currently without fish), and a 40 gallon tank with one albino oscar already, how long he'd been keeping fish, etc. He wanted two more oscars for the 55. We spoke about oscar care, how big they get, that they would outgrow the 55, and he "I know"ed me to death. But since he seemed genuinely intelligent and knowledgable about the fish, I sold him two relatively hand-sized oscars. Not that I had a choice. I told him not to add any additional fish to the tank because the oscars would need all the room, and to monitor the water conditions for a tank cycle. He said he would, and would do water changes as necessary because oscars produce lots of waste, etc. We parted on good terms.

Several weeks pass and I forget about it. People come and people go, I don't remember names and faces too well, they're all just "the public" to me. Well, this same gentleman comes in again, and I recognize him because I remember having such a pleasent conversation with him. This time he plops a fish on my counter in a tupperware container. It was an oscar. The poor thing was beat to death. "I got this fish here, and he's sick," this man told me, "I want another one."

Okay. Now, the fish did not seem sick, but beat up. I know the difference between disease lesions and teeth marks. How'd he get beat up if he was only with another oscar tankmate? Sure, oscars fight with each other, but the two I sold him had been in the same tank before without argument. I test the water out of the tupperware (having no other available water sample), and his ammonias are high. Transport artifact or actual tank conditions? After some questioning I discover the man had added two convict ciclids, a jack dempsy, and some other SA cichlids to the 55.

Apparently the jack dempsy was going to town on the poor oscar. Now, I looked at the fish, and quite franky, it did not look like one of the two I sold this man. When I get fish in like oscars, I really pay attention to their patterns, especially when they've been with me several weeks before sale. After awhile, you get to recognize individual fish, and that oscar definately wasn't one of the orginal two I sold him. After speaking with him a bit more, I discovered this was the second time he returned to the store to recieve another fish. Apparently one of the orginal oscars I sold him died at the jaws of the JD and bad tank conditions. The other oscar, instead of being placed in the 55 gallon like I was told it would be, was placed in the 40 gallon with the albino, and was doing fine. So of course this meant that I sold him a "sick" fish. No, I know damn well I didn't sell that man a sick oscar. If they had been with me for four weeks, eating robustly, and bright, active, alert fish, I know they are not sick fish. Besides, it is against my own personal policy to sell sick fish. I would've warned him that the fish were not well, to select another, or if he insisted on purchasing a sick fish, that there would be no garuntee on the animal.

It is also against store policy to recieve/exchange or refund money or fish from customers due to 1) death due to aggression because of improperly mixed tank mates, 2) bad water quality, and 3) without reciet. This man wanted another oscar. Now there was no way I was going to send another of my precious oscars to their demise in the jaws of the Jack Dempsy. I told the man, "Look, either you can take your oscar back and put him in a quarintine tank (and explained the quarintine process and healing and reintroduction process), or you can give me the fish, I will adopt it and get it well. But I cannot give you another fish, nor refund your money without a reciet."

Well, an argument insues of course. He goes off on me telling me how I don't know a thing about fish. Telling me that he's kept cichlids his whole life and never seen anything like this. That this was the second time he had to come back, so of course it is the store's fault. ETC ETC ETC. Finally, he steps into my personal space, gets right up in my face and says, "You know what Nicole, why don't you just give me another fish."

I hate that. I hate people using my name. I hate nametags. I hate people stepping into my personal space and trying to dominate and intimidate me. I said no, I restated his two options, I said that's all I could do. So of course his reply was, "I want to speak to a manager."

Okay, fine. I go get the manager, I explain the situation to the manager before we even arrive at the customer. Now this manager was one I had lots of respect for. A real herp and fish guy, very intelligent, knows a whole lot about animal care, taught me a thing or two about reptiles and whatnot. Well, we arrive at the customer, and what does my manager do. FREAKING NETS MY LAST OSCAR OUT OF THE TANK AND GIVES IT TO THE MAN!!!

I was dumbstruck and so betrayed. The man smiles like he's freaking king of the world and takes the healthy oscar out of the store that could have been sold to someone that actually cared, and meanwhile I'm left with a poor, beat up fish that I can't sell. My manager said that it wasn't worth the argument anymore, corporate's new policy was "the customer is always right" so we would have no control over refunds or exchanges anymore. No sense getting argued with or yelled at. Give the customer what they want and swallow your pride. I put the sick oscar in a q-tank, and he actually did do much better, until someone else messed with my q-tank and killed everything in it.

But I was just so disillusioned and devesated over that little exchange that I didn't work for the store very much longer.

Ah, and note on bleaching. Usually if bleaching a system it is considered a good idea to remove all fish from the units before you add bleach, whether they are sick or not. I had to bleach out a few systems once when I went to try and clean out another store that had totally let their units go to crap. I had the manager put a hold on ordering more fish for several weeks, took out the bio-media and placed it in aerated buckets, moved the fish into the system that was't currently being worked on, then bleached. It really doesn't take a whole lot of bleach. It worked wonders! All the algae of course was easier to remove once it was dead, and all the disease would have hopefully been killed. After bleaching it is often necessary to drain the entire system, refill it to flush out residue, hit it with a whole lot of dechlorinator, do another rinsing flush, then fill it and let it go a day. After that I returned the biomedia and stocked it lightly. Chemistrys must be done to ensure that there isn't ammonia spikes and the usual cycle crap. The whole fish room took me a week to clean out, and I did one final water change before I left. It was running beautifully.

Of course it only took two weeks for it to go to crap again.
~~Colesea
 

exodon

Medium Fish
Jan 31, 2003
99
0
0
58
western canada
www.myfishtank.ca
#31
hmm

Wow.
That was a tough story.
I can't say I would handle it differently if I were working for someone else. I find that those difficult customers are easily humbled by exposing them to self contradiction.
See, in our industry, or most business...people don't want to be seen as incompetent in public, so they willl never admit to mistakes, or negligence.
Every have this conversation?

" My fish are dying..."
"Have you had the water tested?"

"Yes. I do that myself. "
"and...? what were the results?"
"Uh, oh they're all fine. All the other fish are ok."

"What was the test reading?"
"um, pH was... um, where it should be."

"What was the color?"
"Um, yellow. What color should it be? "
"(sigh) a greenish blue."

"oh, so there's too much pH ..hmm, what can I do to get rid of it? I have this stuff...its green ...will it work?"
(Now this is where I want to say, "sell the tank and it'll be all fixed." But...)

"When did you test last?"
"yester..huh? um.. two weeks ago,...maybe."

Colesea, the trick is to ask questions that ...
a. determine thier level in the hobby.
b. reveal thier cleaning habits and the environment.
c. reveal lies.

Some people lie or mislead, or "forget' simply because they are embarrassed. I can tell these ones, and generally, I think its best to let them know its ok to have bad water...it happens, "lets fix it "

Some, are just bad keepers. If they don't want to learn, or think they know stuff you know they don't, then, do what you have to do to save the fishes life. I know that sounds a little corney, but I think yall know what I mean.

That's too bad you had to deal with such a dope....

Anyhow, its late, I was renovating today so it was a late nite.
Take care yall.
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#32
Hmm, I know the art. When you work in a Vet practice, you get owners who are completely ignorate and won't tell you the complete truth. A dog that has been vomiting "since yesterday" was actually vomiting for four weeks and is now so dehydrated it is in shock. I know the animal has been vomiting for longer than "since yesterday", the Doctor knows the animal has been vomiting for longer than "since yesterday," and the client knows the animal has been vomiting longer than "since yesterday."

Unfortunately if you wish to keep your job, you can't call the client an asshole for not bringing the dog to the Vet earlier. And if you do point out their own ignorance, usually the client will become beligerent and be of no help to their sick animal at all, and take their animal elsewhere. All you can do is swallow "since yesterday" and tell the client "It will cost you $1500 to put your dog into ICU and give it IV fluids until it is rehydrated and we can discover the cause of the vomiting."

Ask leading questions. "What do you feed your dog?"

"Oh, dog food."

"What type of dog food?"

"You know the stuff in the pink bag, Aims, Emis something like that...I get it at Petco."

"Have you fed it anything else in the past?"

"We used to feed it this other stuff, but he didn't like it, so we switched it to this stuff. Now he's throwing up all over the house and it is such a mess."

"So you changed his diet yesterday?"

"No, no he's been eating the Eiams stuff since last week."

"Does the dog get any treats during the day?"

"Yeah, we give him treats."

"What type of treats?"

"Dog cookies, table scraps, that sort of stuff... Last night we had some chicken and I put a little in his dish. He ate that."

"Did he throw up after eating the chicken?"

"I don't remember..."

And then the poor animal decides to heave all over you right in the exam room.

It's like having freaking conversation with a three year old child sometimes, I tell ya. Makes ya want to throttle folk sometimes.
~~Colesea
 

catfishmike

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
2,614
0
36
Sin City, again...
#33
i'll keep this short.people can hardly regulate themselves let alone a whole industry.when fishkeepers practice good keeping habits you have little to worry about.now if we could just get wholesaleres and retail outlets to do the same.