Something to consider

[prhelp]

I'll be honest and say that something's bummed me out here lately.

I only joined your very cool group in late April, when I decided to get back into the hobby. At that point, I had just begun cycling a tank. Lots of you were extraordinarily helpful -- some of you took the time to chat with me about my questions. For that, I'm totally grateful. You guided me toward some GREAT choices, and away from some really bad ones, and mostly, you were just really friendly and cool about it.

I felt like I'd found paradise. I even got a little too addicted to this place -- but it's such an amazing resource. I could spend hours going through old posts, learning, and I'm sure many/most of you can relate.

Then, the other day, I post this thread about my tank meltdown. I'm losing fish hand over fist here, and I THINK I'm doing the right thing, but I'm not sure.

I post my problem, my plan, my results -- and practically nothing.

That is what bummed me out.

My LFS seems solid, but I weigh their advice against the advice I get here -- and very often, your advice is better. I read TONS on the internet, but as you all know, you tend to get some conflicting opinions. I've always appreciated the real-time, "I have personal experience with this" feedback that this board affords us all.

I've never approached this hobby frivolously -- I never came here to ask questions that are fairly obvious (eg, do I need a heater for my 29g tropical fish tank?). I bring this up to point of the fact that I believe it respecting other peoples' time and energy.

So it was a little disappointing to basically totally beg for help on this board, and get nearly nothing (thank you, froggyfox). I've seen more responses to people who did flagrantly dangerous things -- and more responses to curiosities and (admittedly) very interesting issues -- but issues that had little time-sensitivity to them. 48 hours ago or so, I was checking this board with wet hands to see if there was any information that could help out -- even just a "you're doing the right thing" would have, as you guys know, mitigated some of the complete stress and guilt I was feeling about the whole thing.

Maybe arcab4 could start a "fish emergency" board, so that in the future, people could post there -- and you all could choose to address those questions or not. I realize some (stillballin?) might choose to abuse that section, but with new moderators and a little practice, it could work, I think.

Sorry for the long post. Had to get this out and do so in a (hopefully) constructive way. There are lots of newbies out there who come here really looking for and admiring your advice -- you guys have an expertise, in many cases, that totally benefits not only fishkeepers but the fish, too.

You should realize how important your advice is to those newbies (like me). Take care.

 

[FroggyFox]

I actually like the idea of an emergency board...or maybe give the moderators the power to tag posts as "emergencies" for like 24 hours or so as they deem necessary. It would be hard to give the users the power to designate something as "emergency" because, as you mentioned, there are always some people who will abuse their privaledges (sp?) AND of course there is always the matter of everyone's definition of an emergency. I think unfortunately that a lot of fishy type emergencies have relatively quick and fatal endings...although in your case I understand what you mean by just wanting to get that extra squeeze saying "hey don't worry you're doing it right and you've done all that you can."

 

[Angelfish]

I'm sorry you feel down about us prhelp, I know what you mean and think I know what happens. Havent we all noticed how so many people respond in the "freshwater beginner" section, and how the same questions come up every two weeks? People like to respond to those questions because they just learned the answer two weeks ago. We all come in here asking questions that we now consider obvious. Complicated questions that arent about every other week are harder to answer, because a lot of people dont know the answer. I try to give advice whenever I can, but often I have no clue and would like to say something like "Just hang in there and keep up with your efforts!" but then I think "no, what good will that do" I guess I really should say it.
I also come on here and would take almost anyones advice over my trusty LFS that I have been going to for over a year, everyones oppinion counts, even if I agree or not its good to hear what others think.

I've finnaly done it, my whole post didnt contain anything constructive, but atleast I said something =)

EDIT: I typed all that out and forgot to make clear why I said it; it shows why the beggining questions are answered well and in depth and the later ones are not.

 

[prhelp]

Well, the folks on the "lounge" board wanted a good debate recently.

This might be a good one. So there ya go. Enjoy it (seriously -- it's a good question to ask of the members).

 

[amishfignewton]

I was going to type up this big long response of how much this post aggrivates me, but instead I will just say: The advice you get here is free. Just because one of your posts doesnt get answered don't go crying about it. Everyone here has their own lives and can't check the forum every 5 minutes for prhelp's latest emergency. There are dozens of fish forums on the net, if your post doesnt get answered at one, try another.

 

[madhippoz]

Like Amish notes the advice on here is free. People do have their own lives and generally do not come on everyday. When they do they do not necessarily go through every category and read every post, there are just too many. I know that I don't. So perhaps your idea of an Emergency section would help this.

However, Froggy provided you with exactly what you said you didn't get. He assured you as far as he knew that you were doing everything right, and asked you if you'd also raised your temp and removed you're carbon. What else can you ask for? Sometimes when Ich hits or other sickness' no matter what you do, it just doesn't help and you have to face facts that you will probably loose a certain amount of fish. This seems to be the case of what happened to you. Froggy replied 30 minutes after your initial post, and others chimed in 2 days later basically re-iterating his thought that you were doing everything basically right. We do our best here to answer things as best as possible, but again we're all just volunteering our advice when we have time, often from work (such as myself). Sorry that you don't think people got back to you quickly enough, but from the sounds of things, it wouldn't have helped you much anyway. But I do like the idea of an Emergency section, so long as it was moderated. Would give people a quick area to go look for time sensitive problems.

 

[Angelfish]

I dont see what good a fish emergency board would do, I mean you would still have to wait until people come on, they would still be most likely to visit their favorite forums first and come across the post, but if they can help or not doesnt change from which forum it is posted on. I think the only difference would be that the post would get answered 5 minuets sooner. Also like Froggy already said everyones idea of an emergency differs, so I get the feeling that if a emergency forum were started that it would often be abused.

 

[prhelp]

Relax, Amish.

First of all, I wasn't "crying" about not getting answered -- I was trying to provide to constructive feedback to the entire community. I did that.

Second, my post WAS answered -- I made that pretty clear in my post.

Third, my response has nothing to do whatsoever with this advice being "free" -- that is a given, isn't it? That's missing the point entirely. (By the way, if you feel like your personal advice shouldn't be free, write a book -- if not, and if you voluntary join a free community, recognize that other people realize they're joining a free community, too -- and then don't worry about it).

Fourth, I'm not expecting everyone to "answer within 5 minutes" -- this post was not a knee-jerk reaction, but something that came, in fact, about 48 hours after my initial request for help.

Fifth, I don't like the comment about "prhelp's latest emergency" -- I frankly haven't had a lot of emergencies, because I took some time to do my homework. I didn't come on here asking a ton of basic questions precisely BECAUSE I have respect for peoples' time here. Get it?

Sixth, I DO check other forums on the net. I like this one, and I like the people in it. Sue me for having a preference that actually compliments folks like you. Even though I'm not entirely thrilled with you right now, you're one of the people I respect, like and read.

Here is the ironic thing. When I spoke about "something to consider," I wasn't really talking about the suggestion of an emergency board. I was talking about responses. My point? In the last month, one specific poster has posted 25 different questions/threads -- most of which were basic questions that could have easily been answered with basic research. That shows a flagrant disrespect for peoples' time here. Never once did you respond pointing out that misuse of time during that period.

Moreover, those 25 threads got 95 replies!

So your complaining about me is weird -- you should redirect people like that other poster, instead. You might say, "Well, he didn't 'cry' about not being responded to" -- but in fact, he did (with 25 postings). And regardless, my post was meant to be constructive -- as have MANY of my posts.

So the "something to consider" had more to do with basic individualization -- who's asking? Have they done their homework? Do they abuse the board, or advance it/contribute to it?

That kind of discrimination would be a good thing -- that's basically what I'm saying.

If "bad" behavior gets rewarded with tons of replies -- and a simple question, from someone who bothers to try to learn on his/her own, gets none -- then something is amiss.

 

[Angelfish]

prhelp, I dont know if you were talking to me or not, but I wasnt debating you about a fish emergency board, it just came up in topic and I decided to give my oppinion on it, sorry if there was any confusion.

 

[prhelp]

No, wasn't talking to you at all, Angelfish -- my post was directed at Amish and, to a lesser extent, Madhippoz. Your comments about the emergency board were, in my opinion, great -- I'm not sure it is a great idea, either. The debate is a good thing! Feedback! You all have brought up some great points arguing against it.

 

[Antwan]

I totally agree with prhelp. There are stupid posts that could just be researched and answered from a book and it would only 5 minutes of their time. Its taking up other people's time and post space who really need their good questions answered. I think an emrgency board is needed. But I also think that in that emergency board there should be answers to the same old questions (eg ich questions) for somebody who could just read instead of post. Don't call the 911 for a kitty in the tree, you know?

 

[Coyote]

Instead of answering the same old questions again and again, I think we should have FAQ to cover all common fishkeeping questions, don't you think?

 

[Antwan]

Thats kinda what I was suggesting. Instead of answering the same 'ol questions we could have a FAQ. And the only time you'd post is when you had a unique problem thats not addressed in the FAQ.

 

[Somonas]

Interesting thread. I have been away (sick). for the last 2 days and woah 8 pages of new threads. I know how hard it can be to wade through that many posts and miss something accidentally. just imagine how it is for folks who only visit us once a week.

Re: FAQ
this is something I beleive was discussed a year or so ago between me and a few others. an information database, or a plant database, something to co-incide with Clothahumps excellent Disease Database here.

Re: advice
the advice given on this board is the same as any advice given on any other internet board. you have to take it in with a grain of salt, digest it, and draw your own conclusions... none of us here are professional (afaik) but each of us has our own experiences we can draw upon in our replies. and I like to think that our board here contains a wide range of knowlege on different aquarium topics.

Re: emergency board
there is a way for moderators to sticky posts.
this means that no matter how many people reply to posts after you post yours, your thread always remains at the top.
I can propose this to the admin staff. if you have an emergency and want it sticky it, email/pm/im one of the moderators.
I am available most of the time during the day, I use yahoo, msn messenger, and email a lot at work.

Re: discrimination
this is strongly discouraged here, in fact I have seen very little, if any of it in the last 2 yrs I been here. nobody should get preference over others for "quickness of reply etc".

Re: dozens of fish forums on the net.
Well. if we work this kink out. we'll have the upper hand on that one eh?

I'll email this thread fo arcab4. I dunno if he checks the board much.

 

[Leopardess]

I would just like to defend some of those who ask "stupid" questions. Many times, a, say, new fish keeper, will come home and see that his poor fishies are covered in horrible white spots...well, he panics and rushes to the computer and posts an urgent question about it. Then, when he has calmed down, he researches it and finds out that it is called Ich. Then, he realizes that there were already posts about Ich on the forum he used....soo, the problem is a) panic, b) the guy didn't know what Ich was, so how do you expect him to know that's what his fish have, w/o asking, and c) not everyone knows a lot about everything....this site is designed for everyone, and that is inclusive of those who are "ignorant" in the matters of fishkeeping, as well as those who are veritable walking encyclopedias...Besides, as long as it is in the Beginners section, what does it matter? That is what it is there for, isn't it?


Sorry, this was off of the topic of the original question, but I felt the need to open my yap once again

 

[GuppyGuy]

A FAQ section might be a fair idea as well as the emergency board. But remember that people not only come here for help some people enjoy giving it

Also some people who come to this type of format like a live response instead of going to a web page and reading information.

Myself I enjoy all formats of information and read as much as i can in my spare time. If I have the time I will look up things for people and post links to help.

Its people gathering here and discussing things that make a board what it is. Sometimes people do not always agree and sometimes they feel left out. As for pressing Issues like you had an emergency board would have made a difference in the number of responses and types of responses you recieved.

So I do agree some type of emergency response board is a great idea.

 

[FroggyFox]

An FAQ section (if properly thought through of course) would be a good idea...but I think that it would be difficult for everyone to agree on the answers to those "FAQ" questions. Even on some simple beginners questions you have several different opinions on the "right" way to handle whatever it is...and usually most of them have good points!! So I would agree with guppyguy in that I enjoy reading posts and making responses to posts and having people respond to my posts. SOMETIMES those "beginners" questions are beginning to get annoying...but as someone commented the other day, the people who are just getting out of the newbie stage and know the answers to those newbie questions enjoy actually knowing the answers for once and love posting the answers! I think its a cycle that will continue, and one that most of us can deal with

 

[catfishmike]

well here goes nothing.as always we do what we can here.sometimes it does happen that posts go unnotticed.mine usualy do.offten times it you do have an emergency please state it right upfront as so many titles to threads can be vauge(not that yours was too vauge prhelp)i am here 5 days a week sometimes 7.if you ever need help and no one is anwsering your post pm me and i will try to help as much as posible.this goes for any member of the forum.

 

[prhelp]

I'm glad to see everyone debating the merits of FAQs versus emergency boards, etc. I wanted to add two quick responses:

Leopardess -- I don't think there are any "stupid" questions -- however, there are some very, very basic ones that are not emergency-related but rather just research related -- answers that can easily be found by reading a basic book or any of the articles here or elsewhere. If someone's not committed enough to the hobby to do that BASIC research, isn't it a little questionable to assume they'll be committed enough to do the manual labor involving with keeping a tank? That's when it becomes a little iffy for me.

Somonas -- I used the word "discrimination" in the classic sense -- literally, it means to make a distinction based upon category or group INSTEAD of upon individual merit. So, yes, you wouldn't want to make a distinction for "those with fewer than 20 posts" -- that would assume, by group association, that newbies have nothing useful to say/ask. But yes, distinction based upon INDIVIDUAL merit is desirable -- like judging the person for the PERSON, not by his/her color. Do we sometimes choose to respond or read because someone we "know" here has started or continued a thread? Absolutely! That's simply discrimination based upon individual merit or relationship -- not because we're excluding or including classes of people based upon their "class" alone.

Just wanted to be clear -- the word "discrimination" has really negative overtones nowadays, but I was using it in the purest form.

 

[prhelp]

Sorry, one last thing re FAQs, etc. I agree with most of the points made here -- esp. froggy. Lack of agreement on answers would be difficult. But also, there are SO many situations that fall "in the grey areas." In my view, that's what this board is PERFECT for -- when you've got multiple concerns, or conflicting circumstances, and need to prioritize issues.

How about this? It's time-intensive to create, but imagine a basic FAQ that leads through to an interactive "trouble-shooting guide" that leads the user to relevant threads? Basically, three layers. That could all operate ALONGSIDE or INSTEAD OF and "emergency" section -- however, you wouldn't wanna make posting on the emergency board contigent upon going through the three layers, as that would defeat the purpose of a "quick answer."

Yes, it's time-consuming, etc., but I personally would be willing to help out arcab4 with $ to make it happen, if it is what he/everyone here wanted.