Stocking density opinion

skjl47

Large Fish
Nov 13, 2010
712
0
0
Northeastern Tennessee.
#1
Hello; From time to time a post shows up suggesting that a member’s tank is overstocked. The ultra low stocking numbers suggested do not always fit with my aquarium keeping experience. I have kept healthy tanks with stocking densities high enough to be cited as overstocked by some on this forum. Until last spring, I kept ten tiger barbs, five serape tetras, four cherry barbs, three kuhli loaches, four cory catfish, and four zebras danio going well in a 20 gallon long for well over two years.(Note - the picture in my signature is of this setup.) I still have nine of the now very large tigers, four of the serapes, three of the cory catfish, the four cherry barbs, and the three kuhli in a 55 gallon. (The zebras are in another tank.) These fish are all now at least three or more years old. I now have space for the larger tank, but was not able to have it in my former home.
In the last couple of decades I have trended toward minimal stocking myself. It requires less effort and diligence on my part. Maybe the question can be presented along the lines of what is an idealized best on the ultra low density stocking side versus perhaps what you can just get away with on the very high density stocking side. I previously suggested picturing stocking densities in terms of walking down a very wide path versus walking along a tightrope. With low density stocking the path is wide enough for occasional problems to not be devastating. If the power goes off for several hours, low density tanks may allow for enough oxygen diffusion at the water surface to keep the fish alive. An overstocked tank may become critical before long. Think of very high density stocking as walking a tightrope. Small problems may turn into a crisis sooner. If you do not notice a dead fish right away, the decay of that fish might push water conditions that are close to the edge into being unhealthy and result in the demise of more fish. Can higher stocking densities be sustained over time? Sure, depending on your skill level and attention to the conditions.
When I joined this forum, reading thru several posts about the very low density stocking levels suggested struck me as overly conservative. (Many still do.) There is not a question that ultra low fish densities are healthy and stable, that is not an issue. Stocking at very low levels is a safe way to go and should help avoid some problems, but it is not the only way to go. I guess I am writing this because I have kept fish at much higher densities over long periods of time. My current stocking densities are lower than in the past, but even so will now be considered overstocked by the standards cited in various posts on this forum. How, for example, was it determined that a ten gallon tank can only hold six zebras as stated in one post in the past? I have stocked a ten gallon more densely several times.
When I posted similar comments in the past, a question was raised about whether my fish thrived at the higher stocking levels. Here are some relevant portions of my earlier response; “If by thrive you accept the following; 1) Grow to maturity. 2) be colorful and active throughout life 3) reproduce healthy off spring. 4) Eat vigorously 5) Be free of disease 6) exhibit traits normal for the species and the like. Then yes, I will state that fish I have kept at higher densities have thrived. Again it is not that ultra low densities are not great. That is not what I am asking about. Why not suggest ten gallons per zebra? That would surely be excellent,” “A tank can be overstocked to the point of being unhealthy, but it seems to me that some suggested densities are moved several orders of magnitude from good toward an idealized excellent. My experience suggests that they are too conservative, not that they are wrong. If I had the space and money, I would have huge tanks stocked very lightly simply because they are so much easier to run over time than the smaller tanks.” “In the wild there will likely be tens, hundreds or thousands of gallons of water per fish along with the expansive natural cycles that condition the water. We try to accommodate fish in tanks that cannot approach these levels. We substitute filters, water changes, equipment, and regular maintenance.”(I also add knowledge and experience.) “Hello; I agree with the comments indicating that it is best for new hobbyist to start out slow and under stocked, as it will take them a while to learn.”
 

prsturm

Large Fish
Aug 13, 2010
100
0
0
#2
I always worry that I'm not giving my fish enough space, so I'm a low-stocker. I don't like the idea of fish having other fish in their face all the time, even if it the bio-load is properly managed. If they were all the same fish, I guess it wouldn't matter, but in a community tank, I keep things understocked so the different types of fish aren't all up in each other's grills all the time. They have their corners.
 

lauraf

Superstar Fish
Jan 1, 2010
2,181
0
0
Vancouver, British Columbia
#3
Well, I'm one of those members guilty of huge overstocking. I have very few fish deaths, aggression or other signs of 'unhappy' fish, and I've never had a disease outbreak.
But I also have lots of live plants and hiding spots, I change my water religiously, and I watch closely for any problems (and am entirely prepared to rehome fish if needed). Having said that, yes, a small problem can become a big one very quickly for me - I once didn't find a dead tetra for a couple of days, and my nitrates went kablooey. If I were lazy about water changes, things could get pretty ugly, fast.
I guess dramatic overstocking is a risk; I have to be ultra-vigilant. And maybe I've just been lucky.
 

Apr 1, 2006
707
0
0
33
South England UK
#4
Wow well i guess i might soon fit into the overstocker category... i generally try not to and i'm very careful with what and how many, i know pleco's produce a lot of waste so i keep that in mind when stocking, i tend to have shoals of smaller fish as their waste level is considerably less.

I generally go by tank size/ fish size and what i know the tank's ecosystem can handle.

Plenty of hiding spaces etc and i have not had any issues in the past with stocking ( apart from an agressive kribensis during breeding time in a relatively small 19g)
 

skjl47

Large Fish
Nov 13, 2010
712
0
0
Northeastern Tennessee.
#6
Hello; Thanks to those who have responded. I saved the text of my initial post with the intent to do another edit and repost it as a counter point when I do not agree with future statements about a tank being overstocked. I had hoped the folks who are keen on very low stocking would take the time to explain their view point. I am willing to modify my point of view when presented with evidence or new information. I have a science background and had to learn to observe rather than look. Some time ago I asked those who are quick to cite a member’s tank as being overstocked to explain how their stocking parameters came about. Perhaps this time some will respond
 

misterking

Superstar Fish
Aug 12, 2008
1,124
0
0
Manchester, UK
www.facebook.com
#7
Though I've been guilty of overstocking, I've come to prefer lower-density stocking, simply because I know how claustraphobic I can get myself. I just imagine myself in a small room busy with lots of other people trying to get about their daily business and I just think, how is this different for my fish? I guess I imagine they'd like their space and peace and quiet as much as I do!

Plus busy tanks tend to hurt my brain a bit.. too much going on for it to be relaxing. Couple that with the fact they require much more devotion of time to keep running properly and I'd always go with lower-density. I definitely think it's the best/easier route into the hobby for beginners because of this.
 

skjl47

Large Fish
Nov 13, 2010
712
0
0
Northeastern Tennessee.
#9
Hello Misterking; I too have greatly reduced my stocking densities. Partly because, as you said, it takes more time and effort to maintain tanks stocked at higher densities. Another reason for me is that at this stage in my life I am more interested in the plants. The thing that prompted me to open this thread is the way some worded their stocking levels suggestions as a near absolute. It did not bother me, as I have enough experience to know better. However, many of the suggested stocking levels were not couched in terms of being best for beginners. Some folks new to the hobby were being criticized for having tanks stocked at levels that did not seem excessive to me. They were being told to get rid of fish.
I hoped to find out how it is determined that only six zebra danioes should be in a ten gallon tank. I started this thread in part to invite a discussion on the subject. Thanks for a reply.
 

skjl47

Large Fish
Nov 13, 2010
712
0
0
Northeastern Tennessee.
#10
Hello fishman 1995; Yes a tank can be overstocked and one that is truly overstocked will have serious problems. I want to know how the formula for the recommended stocking levels came to be. Did someone do a study? Did a large fish breeder develop the standards over years of record keeping? Thanks for taking time to comment.
 

Thyra

Superstar Fish
Jun 2, 2010
1,891
0
0
Yelm, WA
#11
There are many things about this hobby that have apparently become gospel with no way to find the source or research done. That being said, I doubt there is much money in the ways of grants to do this type of research scientifically because it has no real benefit for society as a whole. IF (and I am NO way going to do this) I was to approach it I would consider weighing fish and determining ounces supportable per gallon of water - but I quickly see the tangibles that could influence the results of this type of research. I think the bottom line is the more live critters you have of any type; the more time, energy, money and consciences care it takes for a successful outcome.
 

Kiara1125

Superstar Fish
Jan 12, 2011
1,142
0
0
Florida
#12
Awesome and extremely educational post skjl!!! I admit that, although I think that I'm currently NOT overstocking (it looks so spacious!!), I do a 40%-50% water change every other week. I do one water change on Friday after school, and another on Thursday after school. I've been keeping this routine for 2 1/2 months now and I have spotted no probablems with a maximum nitrate level of aroun 25ppm. My fish seem to like the water changes, and they are starting to expect it. After I come home, they see me grab the bucket, and they all hide underneath my hollow stump decoration. They know that it is time to change the water, and they don't get in my way. I love my fish and they all have very striking personalities.
 

nanu156

Large Fish
Mar 8, 2010
745
0
0
Detroit, Mi
#13
Stocking rules are rule of thumb, not gospel. What you can maintain and keep up with are different then what someone else can keep up with.

Large tanks can handle being overstocked a bit better. Heavy feeding is another issue with folks who overstock. People love to feed their fish and since fish are beggers people think they are hungry, they usually are not. The heavy feeding leads to a lot of the problems people run into.

There are also a lot of fish that are popular in the hobby that aren't for the newbie, they also won't tolerate overstocking. Ie oscars (need heavy feeding and pristine water) Discus (same as oscars) Ottos etc. There are other fish that will tolerate a lot.

It's trial and error for most new hobbyists. I too flirt with overstocking and occasionally have kept tanks near 200%, I have realistic expectations of my abilities as a fish keeper and the goings on in my tanks.

So yes and no, although generally when we jump someones stuff on this forum on overstocking it is over a 10g tank with stock that would be heavy in a 20-30g tank and 2-3 fish that are just entirely inappropriate.

I would say this is a great post except I don't want to give new fish keepers with small tanks the wrong idea.

I also suggest that if you are going to stock heavy be sure to know that you could lose financially and that it isn't for the faint of heart or the lazy.
 

skjl47

Large Fish
Nov 13, 2010
712
0
0
Northeastern Tennessee.
#14
Hello nanu156; Thanks. That is the type of reply I was hoping for. After a quick first read it strikes me as haveijng some good points. I plan to read it over more carefully and ponder the points. May I borrow and use some of your language in future discussions. (I will cite your words in quotes if you wish, or or just paraphrase if that is ok.) And yes to the notion that new hobbiest are best served by low stocking levels until they gain experience.
 

nanu156

Large Fish
Mar 8, 2010
745
0
0
Detroit, Mi
#15
it's a web forum silly. Yes you can repeat anything I just said, no you don't need to quote or cite me.

I just worry that this thread is going to lead new hobbits a stray..... You already have new/inexperienced hobbits commenting on it that you bring up good points....

The tell tale signs of an over stocked tank are as follows;

-fish death
-inability to keep ammonia/nitrates in check
-stinky/cloudy water etc

We see so much of this on here it's not even funny..... Do I doubt that YOU can keep a super heavy stocking level alive? no, you are fine.

Do I think that a 30g tank can only sustain 1 or two angle fish? No as long as it's cycled and manned by a person who knows how things work they could probably do 5+ some other fish....

There is still disparity between folks who think they know what they are doing, and folks who actually do. Honestly the folks who know what they are doing don't come here with stinky water/dead fish/chronic disease out breaks/bad parameters. They are probably also not questioning their stocking levels. See my point?

If you have to ask this forum what to do in any of those events then you need to stay under 1" of fish. If you were advanced enough to heavily stock you probably already know the answers to those types of questions.
 

misterking

Superstar Fish
Aug 12, 2008
1,124
0
0
Manchester, UK
www.facebook.com
#16
Do I think that a 30g tank can only sustain 1 or two angle fish? No as long as it's cycled and manned by a person who knows how things work they could probably do 5+ some other fish....
Whilst perhaps it could support the bioload of 5 angels, 5 angels in a 30g is asking for disaster.

There's far much more to consider than merely overstocking when you're stocking your tank. 5 similarly-sized, peaceful fish may work here, but angels no, for one reason: breeding. Angels very readily breed in aquaria and when they pair off, they make it almost impossible for the other fish to exist there peacefully, particularly the remaining 3 angels. If four pair off, the remaining one would be bullied to death. It's their instinct. That's why it's not wise to keep a group of angels in anything smaller than 55, in my opinion, and in my experience.
 

nanu156

Large Fish
Mar 8, 2010
745
0
0
Detroit, Mi
#17
Well angels are south american but act more like African (aside from being egg layers instead of mouth brooders) Crowding actually helps spread out the aggression, and 5 would be fine in a 30, I have kept 5 peacefully in a 30 personally, I also bread them for a few years for sale in the local fish auctions etc

a group of 5 would likely produce 1 pair but not real likely it would produce 2. I mean stranger things have happened but...

Again we are talking advanced fish keeping. Not basics. An advanced fish keeper would have a plan in place in the event that aggression became an issue etc.
 

lauraf

Superstar Fish
Jan 1, 2010
2,181
0
0
Vancouver, British Columbia
#18
Well angels are south american but act more like African (aside from being egg layers instead of mouth brooders) Crowding actually helps spread out the aggression, and 5 would be fine in a 30, I have kept 5 peacefully in a 30 personally, I also bread them for a few years for sale in the local fish auctions etc

a group of 5 would likely produce 1 pair but not real likely it would produce 2. I mean stranger things have happened but...

Again we are talking advanced fish keeping. Not basics. An advanced fish keeper would have a plan in place in the event that aggression became an issue etc.
I had four young angels. They became two mating pairs. Needless to say, it was not okay in a community tank. I rehomed all four of them. If you are not prepared to rehome fish, you have to be very, very conservative in your stocking.
Now I have four of the angel offspring in my community tank. They haven't formed any pairs (yet), and show little aggression if any (so far).
 

Kiara1125

Superstar Fish
Jan 12, 2011
1,142
0
0
Florida
#19
Well, nanu. Fyi, (even though it's not directly toward me- I just have a feeling that from earlier coversations that you're including me. No offense, please) I have none of those problems. The 1 (and only 1!!) fish death was from my Oto not eating!! My other Oto is still fine!! Oh, I also found some zucchini at walmart. He's really scary when he smells zucchini. He just attacks it and eats it for over a day. He loves it. I didn't blanch it this time, and after he was finished, there was barely anything left for my other fish!! I'm going to feed him that 3-4 times a week. I have about 10 1" slices of zucchini. I also got some algae waffers that he likes. Oh yeah, he's staying. He's healthy and happy. He stopped pacing all over the tank and he is actually following my Neons like how they did him. He's got new buddies!! Yay!!
 

Aug 13, 2010
870
0
0
Sicklerville, NJ
#20
I have gone over this thread a little and thank that when experienced fish keepers give advice to new fish keepers we try to go on the light side as far as stocking. In addition, I know when I give advise I look at the species as well. As an example with the Angel’s. Could a well filtered 30 gallon tank support 5 adult Angel’s? I would think so but the fish would be surviving, not thriving.

That being said some of us want to keep fish we like because of how they look or act, not necessarily to make the fish happy, so things like that will happen. When there is trouble, they post on here and some people jump down there throats about being overstocked. That should not be the case either…..

I guess to answer SK’s question, for me I have no tangible proof other then 10+ years as a fish keeper.