Store Responsibility?

[aspiringangel]

Reading the thread about Tetra's tv appareance, and how the popularity of Nemo's are going up due to Disney's movie, I got curious. Do you think it's a store's responsibility to warn customers about exactly what they are getting into? I have owned fish for years and though I don't have a big tank running right now, I used to and it was a lot of work - and I sure as heck know that I am not ready to run a salt water tank yet! As cute as I think Nemo is... I asked my LFS once how much it would be to get a nice 20 gallon saltwater tank up and running, including fish - he said, although hi-balling it a little, $600 (I'm from Canada, so it may not be as shocking a prospect to you Americans.).

One time I was in the local pet store, and the cashier / sales staff let some guy walk out of the store with ONE betta 'condo' (betta condo = a 3" by 3" by 5" tall BOX for bettas.) and TWO male bettas for his two daughters. Now, he MAY have had another 'condo' at home for his fish, but I sincerely doubt it. Even so, would it hurt to ask him, or let him know that two bettas in three cups of water isn't going to be a happy situation in probably less than half an hour? But is it up to them to do that? Do you think they have any responsibility to the fish they sell people?

 

[Angelfish]

Yeah I think they do, I also think that they would benefit from telling people which fish would be appropriate for them and which wouldnt, as the person would have a nice tank full of happy fish and keep comming back to the store. But I know that chain companies dont usually warn people about the fish they buy because they are not allowed, but personally owned LFS's really should tell people what they are getting in to (I also think that the person purchasing the fish should do their own part and research first). Previously my LFS has told me that bala sharks were fine for my 29 gal. , that I could mix chiclids with all my other fish, and the pleco, well thats not going to get big at all. Now that I am all the wiser on these subjects, I dont go to that LFS anymore.

 

[Super_Fishy]

Yeah, fish stores should make an attempt to inform the customer on behalf of the fish's well being. However, this goes only to a certain extent. The problem lies within the advice given. I know for sure, few or some lfs are very knowledgable and give out good advice, leading to a better life for the fish they sell. However, it is sad but its the truth. Lfs's are buisnessess, and they want to make money. They don't really care about the fishes they sell, as long they are making $$$. Keep in mind I'm not saying that all lfs are like that, most are.

Here's an example of what I experienced at a highly rated lfs.

I went in there and saw many tanks and great selection. However, one tank stood out. It was roughly 50 or 60 gallons of water. There where about 30-40 large goldfish and comets in the tank (4"-9"). To my surprise, there two little bowfins (or dogfish, Amia calva) about 10 inches. So I asked one of the workers there, an elderly man who seemed very knowledgable. Our conversation went something this.

Me: Do you guys sell freshwater gamefish here?

Lfs: No, they are illegal to sell so we don't.

Me: Then why are there two little bowfins in that tank?

Lfs: Oh, that's just a goldfish and comet tank, nothing else.

Me: They are in there, I saw them (points to them in the back).

Lfs: Oh, those, how did they get in there? Have to move them out later. Its not a bowfin, its a pike cichlid. People like them because they are agressive.

I was laughing my a$$ off. I've seen many species of pike cichlids before, and believe me, its not a pike cichlid. It looks exactly like a bowfin (because it is a bowfin), because I caught them before. I've seen them in public aquariums many times. That's why it was in with the goldfishes and comets. A bowfin is a coldwater fish. It can tolerate warm water, but its definately not a tropical fish. I wonder if they are still there, or already sold to an unsuspecting customer. Its too bad, if I had a tank big enough, I would sure love to have them.

 

[420Loach]

actually, i think the movie companies(in this case), fish product companies, and lfs, should all be partly responsible for leting people know the truth about aquariums, especially salt water. the sad truth is that most people dont care about anything but making money. there are good and bad companies also. i say partial responsibility because the other half of the responsibility belongs to the people who buy the aquarium. its sad that a form of life can go to hell and back, just so someone can have "little nemo" in a 5 gallon. its their responsibility to do at least a little research on the subject, and learn about it.

i have often thought of a universal chart that fish companies(hint: hey TETRA, you guy need karma points!) could send to lfs and retail stores, that would list all the needed conditions for fish.(it would be a huge chart,but...) i wish i could walk in and have a little explenation on the fish im looking at.

 

[cowlovergirl]

I also from ontario canada and I have seen a 50 gallon saltwater sell for 700.00 canadian.. I wondered how we would get the fish home and the tank?

At the lfs here (which I DO NOT shop at) the owner pretty much knows NOTHING about fish. She seriously had FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome) and this has affected her life more than she seems to know. I work at the other petstore in town but we don't have fish and as part of my job I'm have to tell people that the other store has fish. URGH.

She let a customer buy 3 male Bettas and A female betta. He then came into my store shortly after looking for a 20 gallon to put them in. I tried to explain to him that he can't put all these bettas together but he told me that the girl from the fish store told him it would be fine and that it was a myth that they will fight... Hello they aren't called siamese fighting fish for nothing lol.

I do think that if you work or own a store that sells fish you should know something about them. However as a customer you should know what you are getting into before hand. (On another form I had addmitted to not knowning about the id sharks before i bought them this was a mistake i will not make again - i did know about the catfish too lol just forgot his proper name lol)..

Anways to sum it up Yes i think it is the pet store's responsiblity to educate the customer on the pet they are buying. Nobody told me i needed a heater for the angel's when I bought them, until I went back to my store and read up on them. I have to travel more than 45 minutes to the next closest store that sell fish. But it worth it because they are wonderful there.

Angie

 

[cowlovergirl]

LOL Superfishy.. I just read your post.. Thats pretty much like what happend to me when I went into that petstore i was talking about.. I went in to look to see if they had pond clear since my store was out of it..

me: Do you guys have pond clear?

her: yes

me: where is it

her: over with the fish supplies

I walk over and see other pond supplies but not pond clear

Her: find it?

me: nope i guess you are out too ..

her: oh here it is (hands me melafix)

me: nope i'm looking for pond clear..

Her: oh you can use this (hands me aquaclear for tanks)

me: i'm looking for pond clear

She then handed me pretty much everything else they had that wasn't pond clear lol. I kept saying "nope pond clear is what i want" on my way out i noticed the saltwater tank I said oh is this for sale? (it had a huge for sale sign on it) she said no.. I said well what is with the sign?

Her" Oh is there a sign on it? i guess it must be for sale.

Me; how much is it?

her: I dont know.. lol..

Then I was told by her husband who happend to walk in that it was 1200.00!! it was empty...... and only a 50 gallon!! oh well lol..

 

[Flex26]

Unfortunately, a lot of people think that you can just add water to a fish tank and then throw the fish in. People know that you need to dechlorinate the water. But that's it. That's all I thought when I first started. So when my fish died I couldn't figure out why. But then I came here and now I'm an expert!! lol

I think many people just don't know any better. If the fish die, then you replace them until they don't die. Then after a few months when the survivors die, people give up because keeping fish is too hard. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

Fortunately, the Nemos of the world are kinda expensive. I saw Nemo in my lfs for approx $25. And since most people think fish are made to die, I would think (hope) that the parents may think twice before buying a $25 fish that's gonna die in a few days anyway.

 

[aspiringangel]

you'd think so - but I know an awful lot of parents that will buy junior anything they want, no matter if it's a $25 fish in a $400 tank that dies in two weeks.

Unfortunately, this type of thing isn't uncommon with other pets, either! Pet stores sell dogs and cats to people who know nothing about animals and lo and behold, here's the ASPCA or OSPCA in Ontario to the rescue. Just fish a little more easily disposable than cats / dogs.

My LFS is pretty good, they always say 'Your tank has been set up for a while hasn't it' etc - I mean, they don't make sure you know what cycling is, but long you aren't buying your tank and fish same day... But some stores, and unfortunately it's usually the chain stores that people who are just starting out in fishkeeping are more apt to go to, are very ignorant. I was told a dwarf puffer is a nice little community fish! Fortunately, I didn't learn the hard way, but I'm sure many people do.

That guy who bought the two bettas for the betta condo must think my betta lives in the height of luxury, has that 2.5 gallon all to himself, and a filter, too!

 

[Backdraft Bagel]

Here's the thing that any successful hobby or niche-market business owner knows to be true:

It's more profitable to turn a newbie into an enthusiastic lifetime hobbyist rather than just bilk him out of whatever's immediatly profitable. Lifetime enthusiasts will come back again and again and again .. and perhaps even tell others about your store.

What with this whole nemo thing, it's in their best interests to nurture the newbies. A newbie who spent a lot of money on fish and fish supplies but is unsuccessful, will get frustrated and abandon the hobby completely.

 

[FroggyFox]

Backdraft I agree 100%! I suppose overall I think in the end everyone from Tetra Products to the lfs to the newbie fish owner are all ultimately responsible for the fish's health...and they should all do what they can to make sure the fish flourish. Tetra should revamp their website with REAL information rather than just trying to sell more products. The local stores should know enough to answer questions from newbies. Newbies should be smart enough to do some research and ask some questions before they get into the hobby.

 

[catfishmike]

you guys have hit a lot of good points about the faults of fishkeeping and the people how sell fish,but you also forget that we are the cream of the crop as far as amature fishkeeping goes.everyone on this site has far more info than most. when i worked at an lfs there were some customers that were highly informed but the vast majority were the fish water tank equals sucess people and if you try to tell thm otherwise they get upset.the customer is always right don't ya know?if you don't love fish like we do,all fish are is food and decorations.and i worked in an lfs that was using old methods.they still cycled tanks with fish.no one in the store knew how to cycle tanks with ammonia.now think that was one store,how many more are lik that.the bottom line is that as long as people don't respect life in whatever form it comes in animals,our planet and everything else inbetween wil suffer.what does all this mean.nothing.nothing will ever change.fish stores aren't going to inform any one of anything.fish product manufatuers aren't going to give advanced advice,and people will fail at fishkeeping every year.if there is one thing all people should know about fish before starting their first tank is this=fishkeeping takes time and paitence,if you can't or won't read don't bother.

 

[cowlovergirl]

I am just so glad we don't sell fish there is already enough to know with just the pet supplies lol.

My hubby and I were seriously considering buying the lfs here since it's finally up for sale. But they want a lot of money for it and I'm not a fish expert by any means. But I think It would be fun to learn.

angie

 

[catfishmike]

when wrote my first post i didn't even read the thread about tetra yet.that just goes to show how bad some of these companys really are.i mean look how much i expect from them and now theres all this abuot the 5gal. salt tank see how bad the information these people offer really is.

 

[Super_Fishy]

This has been a great thread. I had more thoughts, but had to leave for work. My final thoughts on this are:

I agree that half the responsibility goes towards the customer, or who ever is buying the fish. Before I got my tank, I was researching things about aquaruims and fishes for probably over a 3 months. I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into. Then I realized, no matter how much I would research, I would not be getting enough of the picture. You see, researching is good for basic, raw information. I agree that's important. What is more valuable information, is information given to you from others, especially personal experience from fish keepers. As for me, it became redundant reading articles and stuff because they were mostly the same material, or gave conflicting opinions. I wanted information from people's personal experiences with aquariums. That's why we all come to this board right? The problem with lfs's, is because we (and mostly newbies) assume they are knowledgable about fishes. We could research something to death, and get conflicting information, then proceed to go to the lfs to ask them because we want them to reassure us what's right or not. You see, we assume they are suppose to be experts right? Its like researching a disease, no matter how much research how to cure it, you'll mostly likely trust your doctor's prescribed method to cure the disease because he is suppose to be the expert.

The bottom line is, I think lfs are responsible for informing new comers to this hobby, or get them started on the right track. Onced you believe you're experienced enough, you already know what to do, and not to do. Don't let a lfs talk you into believing something you know is untrue. But, there are times, when we (experienced or not) will need assistance, experience and helpful input from fellow fishkeepers like the people on this board.

 

[Flex26]

Originally posted by catfishmike
when wrote my first post i didn't even read the thread about tetra yet.that just goes to show how bad some of these companys really are.i mean look how much i expect from them and now theres all this abuot the 5gal. salt tank see how bad the information these people offer really is.

I think those people at Tetra (and these other companies) are probably nothing more than scientists who really don't know anything about fish. But they could probably recite the periodic table frontward and backward.

Catfishmike, I believe your comments about people not respecting life is right on target. People view fish as a lower form of life and very expendable. If a fish dies, then buy another one of the same shape and size and hope that little Johnnie or Suzie doesn't notice. Does anyone watch "Malcolm in the Middle"? Remember the episode where Dewie was given the task of keeping a fish alive in order to get the dog that he wanted? Well, his parents wanted him to fail because they didn't want the dog. They figured that the fish would die (because that's what they do) so they wouldn't have to get the dog. I guess the point is: they viewed the fish as an expendable lifeform. And I think that is how a lot of people feel about fish.

Has anyone bought a dog or cat from a petstore? What kind of advice does the petstore give when you buy a cat or dog? I am asking because I have never bought a cat or dog. I think this might help put this into perspective.

 

[cowlovergirl]

[/list]

Has anyone bought a dog or cat from a petstore? What kind of advice does the petstore give when you buy a cat or dog? I am asking because I have never bought a cat or dog. I think this might help put this into perspective.

I haven't bought a dog from a petstore per say however when we lived in texas we adopted two dogs and a cat from petsmart (maybe that is the same thing?) They were very helpful in making sure we understood the responsiblities when it came to taking care of a pet. They had already had their first shots and came with papers for their next shots and to be fixed when the time came. The people who had the dog before hand would even call us to make sure we were still taking care of the dog for a while after. But one time we also bought a cat from another petstore and they didn't help us at all or make sure we had the right food, litter etc.... And she ended up being sick and had to be put down before she was a year old.

 

[FroggyFox]

I am involved with dog rescue...got my dog from a rescue group in Wyoming a little over a year ago. I think the folks that run adoption places are usually a bit more aware of what can go wrong when people get pets from petstores...because the pets that they are adopting most likely came from a breeder or a petstore originally. I don't know about every other place, but I had to sign my life away for this dog...they had to come down and check out the house where I was going to have the dog and make sure it was appropriate for him, they interviewed the lady who owned the house at the time....in other words they spent PLENTY of time making sure that I not only knew how to take care of him, but was going to follow through and actually take care of him appropriately. I still hear from them (we became friends over the adoption application process) and send them pictures etc.

Unfortunately for fish, by the time their owner does something horrible or wants to get rid of them its usually too late to turn the fish over to someone else. Thus the reason we don't have fish adoption agencies

I do wish that more people would support places like Dumb Friends League or adoption agencies because they really do have the animals best interests at heart, unlike petstores and breeders to a smaller extent. Some breeders are great operations and do a good job of matching the pups to the families who are paying a LOT of money for them...but its the ones that don't who give the rest of them bad names.

btw cowlovergirl I think that just because you got them through petsmart...that doesn't count as buying them from a petstore It was an adoption.

 

[clockworkgreen]

I think it's all Disney's fault!

...And rather, just to clarify, I know Disney backed it, but Finding Nemo is a Pixar movie. Gotta give credit where credit is due. Pixar never disappoints.

I think it's ultimately the person's responsibility to make sure they aren't setting up for disaster. I bet people probably get confused when they see 50 fish in a crowded tank at a store and say, "Well, if he has it set up like this, I guess I can do it, too." People prepare their houses before they bring home dogs and cats, and they should make sure they have the correct preparations before bringing fish home. I don't think it's the stores responsibility, unless the person asks. And if they don't know, they don't know. I'm a research fanatic, so I make sure I know my stuff before going into any situation. That makes me and 1% of the population.

I do like fish, but I am much, much, much more attached to my dogs and cats. Why? I don't know for sure. But it's definitely true. I guess I see the fish as a hobby and a nice thing to look at and have around. I'm certainly not looking to jeopardize them in any way, but I'm not taking the fish to the vet either. So when stuff happens, it's me and you guys who get to play doctor and diagnose and fix and do what we can manage to try and help. And I am not a perfect keeper or a perfect fish doctor.

I'm also an avid fisherman, too. And I really enjoy eating fish. Those might be really wrong to bring up here...Is that like admitting I'm a pseudo-cannibal? I enjoy them in all senses of the word.

 

[Leopardess]

I was in the pet store one day when a young couple walked in and spotted a big newfoundland they liked. Well, they decided on the spot to purchase the dog. The sales person did not ask if they knew anything about dogs, or that breed, which gets veryyy large. They obviously did not know anything about dogs - they did not have a collar, puppy crate, food, food dish - anything. And even then only at the suggestion of the pet store salesperson. They walked out spending around 2000 bucks on a dog they were definietly not prepared for - and the salesperson sold it to them. There was no "on the condition that you take it to the vet regularly" or "you must get it spayed/neutered).


But, recently I got two kittens from a woman involved with cat rescue (this litter was dropped off at her home door with the mother on MOther's Day - how nice). Well, she had a screening process, made sure we knew what we were doing, had the best foods, had a scratching post, leash, harness, breakaway collar, etc etc. That the cats wouldn't go outside, that we take them to the vet within the week, that we would get them neutered by age six months, that if we ever didn't want them we would return them to her. This was all signed in contract. She made certain that she knew we knew what we were doing. Down to the last detail. And you know what? Unlike at pet stores, we didn't pay 600 bucks a piece. All she asked was a donation. So we gave her 300 bucks. And you know what that went to? Not to make a profit; but instead to help rescue other cats and fix feral cats. THe money went to a good cause...


I dont know, I would never buy an animal from a pet store (although I am forced to buy fish there) They are only in it for a profit and have no regards for the lives of the "products" they sell.

Sorry, this may have been slightly off topic.

 

[clockworkgreen]

Leopardess - couldn't agree with you more. Well said. I would only get my dogs and cats from rescue leagues and shelters. I donate regularly to rescue leagues as well. They do incredible work and don't get very much support.