The Mandarin Candidate

lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#1
Preamble
As you can probably guess by the title, this post pertains to mandarinfish. Ready for the controversy? I'm trying to keep a green mandarin in a ten gallon tank.

Only reason I'm posting my project is because this is MFT... I could never dream of posting this on another board. People are too nasty and their arguments are circular--they are unwilling to open their mind on the idea, and any time someone offers a researched and thought-out method, the thread degenerates into a mire.

I've done a lot of reading, planning, and writing on this, and I'm sharing everything because I believe what I'm doing advances the marine hobby, whether I succeed or fail.

I'm copying a lot from my article I posted on my site as well as my blog.

Let's begin, shall we?


Philosophy
I believe keeping a healthy, happy green mandarin goby in a ten gallon tank is possible. I also believe we will soon be seeing tank-raised and aquacultured green mandarins in the next ten years. Feeding issues will be a thing of the past, and farm-raised mandarins will eagerly accept frozen and processed foods. Nano tanks are very new to the saltwater scene, and fifteen years ago a reef aquarium under 55 gallons was absolutely unheard of. Thanks to new lighting technology and the Berlin method of natural filtration through live rock, smaller quantities of water are holding fish and corals aquarists never dreamed of keeping.

Mandarins are some of the most popular, easily available, and cheapest fish on the saltwater market. They experience the greatest mortality rate of marine fish as well. Given these two facts, and given the nature of capitalism (let alone the evolutionary advancement of the marine and reef hobby), I believe we'll be hearing a lot more stories of mandarins eating frozen and pellet food and thriving in tanks once thought impossible to sustain them.

In fact, this is already happening. Many marine hobbyists who've done their homework have reported success in keeping mandarins in nanos, and several have even weaned them onto pellet food. Unfortunately, people are often afraid to admit their success on forums. As mentioned above, keeping mandarins in anything but the traditionally accepted housing--100 gallons, 100+ pounds of live rock, a 2-year old, "mature" tank--brings out the worst in some people. For whatever reason, they will not open their minds to even the idea of success.

Now some additional thoughts:

* I will do everything in my power to provide the mandarin with the nutrition and care it needs.
* I believe experimenting with pets is good, as long as the caregiver has done his homework.
* Fish are not people. Attaching human elements onto fish or any lower animal is a fallacy. I am not "torturing" a fish for selfish or aesthetic reasons; I am advancing the hobby by trying to do what others have successfully done before.
* If my experiment fails, I am prepared to "eat" the fish and all the expenses. I will return the mandarin to the LFS, and I will probably try again with another specimen. If I fail again, I will most likely give up; however, I will never condemn someone who tries the same thing.
* I will not know if things are going swimmingly until I reach the six month mark.

The Plan
I will arrange my tank to accommodate copepods, the mandarin's main food source. Instead of a fuge or a sump I will culture the pods in a separate venue: several quart mason jars on the windowsill. I will inject the tank with fresh pods on a regular basis so the population will always stay at adequate levels.

I will be using Essential Live Feed's Oceanpods.

Each bottle contains 1000 copepods of three different species. They are nutritionally dense and provide the essential fatty acids that brine and other food often given to mandarins do not. Also, if you're able to sustain a constant population, you'll not have to worry about getting your mandarin to eat frozen or processed foods ever again!

According to Dr. Adelaide Rhodes, the creator of Oceanpods, "It is difficult to believe that something so small could have such a significant impact on the nutritional value of fish, but a good analogy is the dependence of whales on krill. Krill are just another type of marine crustacean rich in essential fatty acids, and the preferred food of many species of whale, which filter the krill out of the water by pushing them through the fine mesh of baleen found inside their mouths. Without the krill, the whales would die. Think of the size of the whale compared to the krill and you can begin to see how significant Copepods can be in the marine food web." (source link)

Please see Dr. Rhodes's site for more information.


Above is the beginning of my pod factory, which will consist of multiple quart jars, each containing a nontoxic plastic dish scrubber (the coarse type of sponge that looks like fishing net). Once the progenitor batch of pods multiply and the population takes off, I will split the culture to the second jar, and then the third, etc. I estimate in a month's time I will be able to lift a scrubber from one jar and shake out enough pods in various life stages to keep my main tank's population at sustainable levels. The decimated quart jar will then have enough time to rebuild its population while I pillage the remaining jars once or twice a week or as needed.

In addition to the copious pod population, I will attempt to wean the mandarin onto frozen mysis, and ultimately, Formula 1 or Marine Cuisine. I've read reports of an LFS worker in Australia having an 80% success rate with getting mandarins to accept prepared or frozen foods. He used freshly hatched brine shrimp and "gut loaded" them with bloodworms and other frozen and processed fare, and slowly he weaned the mandarins onto the regular foods.

Some Tricks
Many hobbyists over the years have discovered a few tricks to help get a mandarin eating or plump. I've outlined several of them below.

* Use a refugium.
* Create a "pod pile" of small chunks of live rock in a corner. Pile the rubble up so fish cannot enter and spray the area with minute bits of food to herd the pods into the safety area to feed and reproduce.
* Target feed blood or blackworms, mysis, or Marine Cuisine to a crevice in the live rock. It is believed fish have selective memories and return to a location that is known to hold food.
* Employ a mandarin diner. Though this looks good on paper, I'll be very interested to see if it does anything for a mandarin that doesn't eat prepared foods.
* Stock your tank with porous and gnarly live rock. More surface area the better, and place them so there are fish-free areas. By many reports, mandarin success has as much to do with the placement and type of live rock as it does with the volume.
* Employ non-combative tankmates that won't go after pods. According to several hobbyists, some mandarins have duplicated the behaviors of other fish. One was even reported to have imitated a crab and begun to consume baby brine shrimp in the water column.
* Style your tank around the needs of pods and mandarins.

Conclusion
I don't know if this will work. But I'm willing to risk a lot--the fish, as well as a fair chunk of money--because I believe there is no reason why this hypothesis will not hold water. Nothing tried, nothing gained, as I see it. I've put a lot of thought and time into this project, not to mention investment. I would love to see mandarinfish in smaller tanks because they so easily get lost in the huge systems. I've thought my way through every step of the way, and if I fail... well, I can't say that I haven't been warned.

Progress
I've had the mandarin for one week now. As posted in my blog, he continues to graze on the live rock, sand, and glass, and he continues to snare a goody every 5-10 minutes. I've injected pods twice now into the main tank. I added a scrubber pad into my little HOB filter box. The idea of the scrubber in the filter is to spray the fresh pods into the filter box and let them trickle down into the main tank as they are attracted to light. Algae and detritus from the filter, in theory, should sustain a small fuge-like population in the box.

Now the bad news.


The mandarin is not as plump as I'd like him be. He has improved since purchase, but I can still make out the line in his abdomen. I fear I may have bought one too far gone. As I see amphipods on almost every patch of sand and rock I look closely on, and I can find copepods with a flashlight at night, losing him will not be for want of food.

I've been in touch with Dr. Rhodes and I have started my second culture jar. However, my first jar may have been contaminated. I introduced some algae into the jar, and it could have possibly fouled the water and stunted the culture. Today I removed most of the algae with a prong. I believe most of the pods are deep in the sponge and out of my view, so I will have to wait longer to see a population boom.

Lessons learned: Do not add algae. It can hold unconducive hitchhikers as well as pollute the culture. Also, wait until you are seeing large growth before adding the scrubber. The pods seem to disappear into the pad and it is hard to gauge when you're ready to split the culture.

Final thoughts
Please see next post for final thoughts.
 

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lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#2
I know there is a lot of bad science here, but it's the best I can do. I am taking every precaution I can think of. Obviously, since I've put this much work into the project so far, I'm not looking for anyone to say "go for it!" or "forget about it." I am merely trying to advance the hobby and share with everyone this project and open a forum for responses, positive or negative.

I'm happy I can share this with MFT. As I said at the start, if this was any other board, I'd have to go into hiding for fear of a contract being put on my head. For anyone who's a member of nano-reef and knows the term "mandarin police," you surely know what I'm talking about.
 

aresgod

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Jan 14, 2004
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#3
good luck, I have had mixed success with mandarins before, I have had one specimin that eats frozen and flake, and another specimen that only eats pods...but I aplaud what your doing, in a scientific manner you are aproaching the problem from many different angles and hopefully you will find a solution. My main issue is when novices buy mandarins because of their spectacular coloring as an impulse buy and have no idea what is entailed inorder to care for them, again best of luck.
Brahm
 

OCCFan023

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Jul 29, 2004
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#6
I applaud you for everything your doing for this fish. Im not too familiar with them as many of other people are here, so I cant quite grasp the magnitude, but just from your original post I am amazed at the research, effort, and care your doing for this fish. Theres people that have aquariums for fun and a hobby, but I may just be tlaking out of my *** (and if I am Im very sorry) but it seems to me that theirs some people that do this not only for the fun, but knowledge of what gos into it on a level that astonishes me. I wish you and your mandarin luck.

And I see that you said if this was posted on anothe rboard theyd be all over you, Id like to see the person that qould respond negativly to your plan, and tell you that this is rediculouse. I think you should post this on another board and see if someone else says something bad, I dont think theres a person out there that could refute this argument
 

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lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#9
Thanks everyone.

Yep, the pics are of my mandarin. He's nearly 2 inches. I took the pics the day after I bought him, and he's not so pinched in the abdomen as he was then, but he still has a way to go before he looks like the healthy fat mandarins you see in pod-rich tanks.

Man, I love this forum. I don't know what I was worried about! I just hope the plan works and we'll find a sure-fire way to keep these amazing fish healthy and thriving in small tanks where they can really be enjoyed.
 

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FroggyFox

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May 16, 2003
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#10
OK I know nothing about saltwater so I can't really speak on the validity of this project or not...it seems to be well thought out and researched to an outsider like me though!

I will say that mandarins are my favorite salt water fish...so I love the pics :)
 

wayne

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Oct 22, 2002
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#11
I assume you'll get a beating elsewhere because this has been tried on a bunch of occasions before?

I think you're right about aquacultured mandarins being a much easier prospect to feed, assuming somone makes a nutritionally adequate food. I assume you knwo that mandarins have been spawned on numerous occasions and the fry have been raised out on several so this is technically quite feasible. I only hope the market will be adult enough to accept that these fish and be prepared to pay a premium for a fish that lives. Also you'll still have to live/deal withthe fact that they are not vigorous feeders, and in most small tanks with other fish, the others will get there first.

I have to say I think you're underestimating the hardware needed to feed him long term. Quart jars on the windowshelf is a bit ad hoc
 

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lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#12
I've heard of them spawning often, but I've heard little of the fry being successfully raised. I figured it was like the rare spawning of clown loaches... I'd love to read more about it, though.

Any links or magazine articles that discuss it? :)

I totally agree about the market. I know I'd pay up to a hundred for a frozen food eating specimen (as long as it eats something OTHER than brine), and I've heard tell of some LFS's selecting out the good eaters and chargining more. The Australian story I linked to was charging 35-40, I believe... a steal.
 

NoDeltaH2O

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Feb 17, 2005
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#13
I can only wish you the best of luck. I can appreciate someone who thinks outside of the box and steps into unexplored territory. Having such a beautiful fish in a ten gallon tank would be a great addition to any aquarist's home. I am not a saltwater person myself, so my question may be stupid, but here it goes: Could you have a male and a female, or more than one female, generally some combination of males and females provided they all get enough food?

Oh, the outcry,...more than one mandarin in a ten gallon tank. Maybe that would have to be phase 2 of the experiment provided you are successful with keeping one. So how much did your mandarin cost? I've seen them in LFS around here but never took note of the price.

KUDOS
 

lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#14
Males will fight and tear one another up unless in an enormous tank, but a male/female combination would work if you could harvest sufficient food for em both. Their spawning dance is quite elegant, I've heard; they link together and spiral up to the surface of the water, but this requires a much larger, taller tank than a ten.

I was shocked when I first glanced their price... they range from 25-13 dollars. I paid 15 for mine, cheaper than my royal pleco. This is one of the reason they have such a high mortality rate. Their coloring is amazing and then people see the price, and that's it.

Thanks for the kudos ;)

Oh, and the mandarin looks much better today, a lot more rounded. I believe this has a lot to do with me turning on the moonlight while it was still light outside, as opposed to turning it on at night. The rocks and sand were crawling with bugs last night, it was really quite amazing.
 

dbacksrat

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Jun 3, 2003
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#15
Wow--this is a great post so far...you definetly have the cajones needed for this project--good luck! Do you plan on breeding if your experiment goes well? This is exciting--potentially the best thing to happen to this hobby since LR
 

NoDeltaH2O

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Feb 17, 2005
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#17
I am very glad to hear that both a male and a female can peacefully cohabitate. So 2 Mandarins in a 10 gallon tank is next! If you keep this guy for a few months succssfully and he plumps up and is really healthy, would he readily accept a female in such a small (feeding) space, or would he chase her around?
 

lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#18
5/5/05 Update

Last night I moved the scrubber from the HOB filter box into the main tank. It's concealed under the pod pile, which took some time and manipulation to get it out of sight. The pod pile is much larger now, and the scrubbing pad will hopefully become a pod breeding ground soon. By adding the pad, this also makes the pod pile significantly more effective... more surface area, much more security from fish, etc.

I saw oodles of pods last night too, crawling over the shells mostly. Mostly the larger amphipods, but they were everywhere.

Observing the mandarin this morning I realized a lot has to do with what angle or position he's in when I gauge his abdomen. Sometimes he looks healthy and plump, but when he angles himself in another way the pinched look is back.

I'm hatching some more BBS as a supplement while the jars culture. When the BBS settle on the rock and sand, the mandarin gobbles them up same as a pod. Too bad they're nutritionally fallow.

I also think he may be consuming small bits of formula 1. I crumble up a pellet to feed to the clown, and a lot of it lands in nooks and crannies on my biggest rock. I immediately see the mandarin investigate the rock and pick at holes... however, I don't know if he's eating the formula 1 or not.

As per breeding them, I think I'll just settle for keeping one healthy for now :) I'd also have to chuck my clown if I got a female to minimize the bioload.

Some thoughts and assumptions:
You know what happens when one assumes... he makes an *** out of u and me. But anyway, I had some ideas last night.

A fine bed of sand may be better for pods than the coarser stuff. Also, I have several halfshells turned ridge-side up, and the pods congregate around them at all times, scurrying on top and under. The inside may be a refuge for them. I will definitely put some more in the tank and see if this increases the pod population.

I think the more stuff you have in, the better, especially little stuff half buried in the sand.

These are all untested theories and are probably just circumstantial evidence, but I found them interesting.
 

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S.Reef

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Dec 1, 2003
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#19
It should be fine. I know someone that has a pair in a nano cube. They do accept brine shrimp and mysis.

You might want to try cyclopese shrimp. Mandarins love those, and they are very nutritous.
 

lordroad

Large Fish
Sep 2, 2004
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#20
I've heard people having good luck with cylcopese too so I'll pick some up at the lfs next time I go.

Now a question... what instrument do you guys use to target feed corals? I'm using a turkey baster right now and it's not that effective. I've heard syringes, but where you can you get those?