Transgenic Fish

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jabce85

Large Fish
Jul 12, 2003
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Evansville, Indiana
#1
I recently received my new issue of Aquatic Eco-Systems, Inc., and to my surprise they are now selling two types of Transgenic Fish through the magazine, the TK-1 Transgenic Medakafish and the TK-2 Transgenic Zebrafish. For those of you who don't know what Transgenic Fish are, here's an article from the magazine.

"Genetic engineering and gene transfer are important modern biotechnologies that have recently been applied in fish. Gene transfer conveys foreign DNA fragments or genes into the nucleus or cytoplasm of embryos by microinjection. Through this process, the foreign DNA fragments or genes may replicate and subsequently express themselves in embryos. The foreign genes may be from fish of the same or different species. The injected embryos that express the genetic trait of the transferred gene are then referred to as "Transgenic Fish."

Well, there it is. In my personal opinion, this is in no way right. I feel that there are some people out there that feel like "playing God" and creating new animals. I think they're out on a power trip. I just can't fathom why people actually do this. I mean, come on! Is this actually worth spending all of this time and money on making new fish that glow? Is there actually a purpose for doing all of this? Will this world end up like Jurassic Park? Probably not, but why waste the time and the money unless it has something to do with anything. I hope everyone who reads this will have something to say. It really would be nice if someone could answer my questions, but feel free to leave as many comments as you want. Thanks for reading my thread!

Transgenic Fish - *thumbsdow
 

jabce85

Large Fish
Jul 12, 2003
134
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Evansville, Indiana
#2
TK-1 Trangenic Medakafish

Scientific Name: Oryzia latipes
Common Name: Medaka, Killifish
Origin: Asia
pH: 7.0 to 8.0
Temperature: 28 Degrees C.

The TK-1 Medakafish is a transgenic fish that emits a green fluorescence throughout its entire body. In general, the physiological characteristics and genetics of the Transgenic Medakafish are exactly the same as that of a wild fish, with the exception of color. The color derived from the transgene is very stable and long lasting.
 

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jabce85

Large Fish
Jul 12, 2003
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Evansville, Indiana
#3
TK-2 Transgenic Zebrafish

Scientific Name: Brachydanio rerio
Common Name: Golden Zebra Danio
Origin: India
pH: 6.5 to 7.2
Temperature: 18 to 26 Degrees C.

The TK-2 is formed by combining the gene extracted from the muscle tissue of an albino zebrafish with a fluorescent gene from a jellyfish, forming a gene fragment. This gene fragment if then micro-injected and implanted into the embryo of the albino zebrafish under a microscope. The process is best suited for the light body color of albino fish as the fluorescent color makes the fish appear more vivid and colorful. The TK-2 Trangenic Zebrafish is available in two fluorescent colors, green and red. Please note that these fish are completely sterile and cannot breed in captivity.
 

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CoNMaN

Large Fish
Jul 1, 2003
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#5
Im okay with this. Granted that this is "playing god" it is only doing the same thing that farmers do. Farmers have been planting genticly altered seed for years. But as soon as scientist alter something that has eyes. It is wrong? These fish are altered so that scientist can learn more about how living things are made up. And they can also market these fish to make some money too. I say why not. Lets help them learn as much as they can.
 

Jul 15, 2003
566
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Western New York
#8
Genetic engineering is very dangerous and I will tell you why...I wrote a paper in college about this and at the time I was all for it...until I did the research!!...let's help people with different disabilities and diseases...However, right now its just plants and animals (which still isn't right!) but when we start engineering humans (and parts) it will put the ultimate power to those that own it. Either one company will have ALL of our genetic makeup in order to keep it secure or it will be spread out among several companies making the info very insecure...These companies will be more powerful than the CIA, KGB, & FBI combined!!!

Next, let's say you had a child and before he/she was born the doctor told you it would be born with a disability...but since you are against genetic altering you decide to have the baby naturally with no intervention...they could charge you with child abuse because you are not thinking of the wellfare of the child OR your child could grow up and sue you for leaving her/him that way!!!

Lets face it everyone, human beings have to die...the herd needs to be thinned out (sounds cold but thats reality!)...we put human life on a pedestal and sdisregard the rest...we kill off deer because they are migrating into our towns and villages...but yet China has over 1 BILLION people!!! Japan has to bury their dead one on top of another (with only a few feet of dirt in between each person) in order to save land!!

OK..I am off my soap box now...some of you will agree with my stand and others will not...someday any one of us may need a transplant and genetic engineering could save us...What will you choose to do?
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
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#9
Well, transgenic mice, pigs, rats, sheep, beagles, rabbits, etc have been around for ages and a day, I don't hear anybody getting upset about that. Transgentic animals have made possible insuline for diabetics, Alzhiemer meds, cancer treatments, and a whole lot more. But I guess what you don't know doesn't hurt you, eh?

We are all God. So whatever the human race does to itself and others, is all the Will of God. Didn't God say "Go forth and take dominion over the fruits of the lands and animals of the earth..." etc etc etc. What else is humankind doing but exactly that? Our striving to manipulate genes is just another Christian/Catholic instilled concept that humans have to be in complete control of everything, even to the level of our own DNA. And given the fact humans are only animals, we go about things in quite animalistic manners sometimes. Hell, it's a dog eat dog world out there folks.

Didn't God also say "Be fruitful and multiply"? Can't say we haven't been fulfilling the Word of God. Of course, when you are reproducing at the rate the human species is, odds are not in your favor to produce a "perfect" human every time.

Our social instinct produced the morallity to "protect the group" and support those with disabilities. Even wolves and lions protect the weakest of their packs, hunting for the infirm even when they cannot hunt for themselves? Are the disabled of the human animal any less deserving or has human society sunk below the level of a pack of wolves? That same social instinct also abhors those who are "different" and don't fit in. Thus the controversy begins, and you are either PC or you're not.

I dare anybody who believes what Hawkeye does to say so into the face of a mother who has a disabled child. But I would also warn you, never get between a mother bear and her cubs. So then you do support eugentics? How about genocide? Infincide? Should we remove the laws against murder as well? An anarchy of survival of the fittest? Or would you rather simply abort imperfect fetuses? One thing I will agree with, if someone wants to commit suicide, I say hand them the rope. There's one form of population control that really ought not to carry such a stigma.

Cemetary plots in the USA are also quite limited, and with the UK being an island as well, I'm sure lots are at premium prices. Makes me wish I owned a cemetary. Instead of bitching about how the dead are buried, why not start a campain for Soylent Green? Or how about start a Pro-choice crusade, or go to your local school district and give 15 year olds a classroom talk on contraceptives.

Oh wait, isn't sexual education and abortion against God's Word of "be fruitful and multiply"? But if we are God, then don't we also have the ability to change the Word of God? Rewrite the books? Hell, we do it to history all the time, why not just do the same to society dogma and make genetic altering more acceptable? It will come to that, you know, evolution is a force not to be reckoned with. We evolve every day, every decade, on micro and macro levels, but like a fly in amber, we cannot see those changes because we are in the moment, not outside of it.

I say get rid of organized religion before you knock transgentic fish. Think outside the box, people, outside the box. Or revolt in apocolyptic fashion. Apocolypse is about the only force to stop the natural course of things.

As Revengeishere so simply stated "at least these guys only have a new gene..." Are you for real? I'm sorry, but I will not excuse half-way, whimpy replies like this. How, may I ask, are transgentics any more acceptable to you than genetic manipulation through selective breeding? If you support transgentic fish, then you must support parrot cichlids, mules, domestic dogs, corn, wheat, rice, trout, and other life on this world whom have had their appearance/shape/color/form/function altered by the direction of human discrestion. What is good for the gander must also apply to the goose. How are desiner babies any different from breeding for specific confromation in Springer Spaniels?

Please, don't "play" at being God. Either except the responsibility that being God entails, or get out of the gene pool.
~~Colesea
 

Jul 15, 2003
566
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Western New York
#10
Whoa there colesa!!! You took my word totally wrong!! I never said to get rid of our disabled persons!! I am a physical education teacher that specializes in working with kids with disabilities...and I am the first to say that there are the most amazing people I EVER met!!

What I was saying is that when its time its time...not to kill the weak but we all die!! And you talk about God...well I am not religious...I look at religion as a way for people to explain the unexplainable...there is no way ALL these religions can be right and if there is a supernatural-being...and if I am wrong...I lead a good life and I try not to hurt anyone...
And I am not "Bitching" about cemetaries...read my words correctly before you criticize!!! What I was talking about is controling our actions...sexual education is needed for that very reason...there are men who stick their thing everywhere and produce children...and many times the mothers put them up for adoption...is this in "God's Word!!?" Abandon our young!! NO...educate on responsiblity...I see young pregnant girls 13, 14, 15 years old!!! What does "God" say about them!!!?

I respect your opinion and you are entitled and I would love to debate with you...but don't come here "preaching" telling me I am wrong...voice your opinion..read the words of others CAREFULLY before you reply!!
 

Eire

Medium Fish
Nov 26, 2002
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#11
First of all, this is the third thread (at least) that has been done on this topic, with the same triggering article, in the last month. We all know each others' opinions; please look at old threads before you post. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just trying to point out we are whipping a dead horse.

The Times they are a Changin'

Please don't buy this fish when it shows up stateside...

Next, I'm sorry, but we, as humans, have been playing God a very long time. Do you think that grain got domesticated on its own? Do you think that a significant number of the large mammals in the Americas when extinct, without the influence of the invading humans? We have been adding genes to plants and animals for a long time, using such methods as hybridization. We perpetuate unnatural species: I mean, how else would the domestic banana/plantain survive? It's sterile. Wild bananas are inedible, they are full of very hard seeds. I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm pointing out our actions in both the past and the present, which involve gene manipulation without using the hysteria inducing "transgenic" word.

I agree that corporate control may be dangerous to the rest of us (and no, I don't trust that all the changes are safe to both humans and the environment), but the "don't play God" argument always gets me, since we can't help but change our environment, it's a part of how our species interacts with the world.

Lastly, I think Colesea wrote a well thought out, not preachy, response to HawkEye's message. It was easy to interprete the post the way that she did even if, according to HawkEye, she misunderstood it.
 

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jabce85

Large Fish
Jul 12, 2003
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Evansville, Indiana
#12
Well well well.... I see that this has turned out just how I figured it would. I expected this to happen. I just wanted to see how everyone would react to this. If you want my opinion, you should all stop worrying about the people who are actually doing this, stop worrying about people changing God's words to mean whatever they want it to mean, and stop trying to fight with each other, it only makes things worse. What you should do is know where you're going when you die, and try to help people see what you see in your life. I know what I see, and I can't wait until I finally die. That day will be awesome! I just want to affect as many people's lives around me as possible. I hope that you all can see where I'm coming from, and I hope that you all will someday know where you will end up for eternity…

Okay, well, sorry I got off subject, but I figured it would. I just wanted to know everyone's views on this subject, and I've noticed that every time it's brought up, it always seems to turn into one big major conflict, and I'm sorry for that. I did this to make a point, and I hope it was very clear. I thank you everyone for posting!

BTW, please don't ever say adoption is wrong. I know you didn't say that, but adoption is better than abortion. I wouldn't be here without it!!!! Just keep that in mind.
 

catfishmike

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
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Sin City, again...
#13
this is such a fun subject.i do think in a lot of ways it's both wrong and right.it's wrong becuase it does play god as we have deciced to call it and it totaly defeats the purpose of evolution.i wouldn't want to face anyone witha disability and tell them they shouldn't live but at the same time do you find yourself wondering"what makes life living when when you can't "live".it's a matter of taking a stance and either truly beliving in what you belive in or saying what makes people happy.i belive in evolution and i belive that genetic engenering.i also belive that humans are the cause of all the worlds problems.we kill as many creatures as we can think of.in the thousands of years that the earth rolled throuh time things live things died all on the merits of survival.in just the last few hundred years we have managed to kill vast numbers of thing that will never grace this planet again.at what cost greed and stupidity.in most cases the only benifit of the destruction of our world is to line someone's pockets with gold.whats my point?quality over quantity.sure genetic engenering can improve lives but whos?yours,mine,the privleged few.why don't we use all this technology to improve the human dispositon.what good is it to use any thing to help people if it just allows them to live to suffer.sure we can grow a million billion tons of food to feed the starving masses of africa but if we don't ensure that everyone gets their fair share,then all those good intentions were for naught.i want to think that one day i will live in a world where people aren't overcrowded,all the plants and animals i grew up with are still with me and not just a vauge memory.and last but not least i want to think that every person will be able to live the life they want to live and not the life the have to live genetic engenering has a place in this world but only if we use it with equality not economy in mind.sorry if i don't make a damn bit of sense cause i usualy don't(well i do to myself at least)i was i no way trying to offend or attack i just though i'd offer my 2 cents.i have strange veiw of the world and as such my point of veiw can be kinda odd
 

Jul 15, 2003
566
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Western New York
#15
I am disappointed that my words have been misinterpreded...especially when it comes to people with disabilities...however...let me interpret YOUR words...you are telling people with disabilities that they are not good enough just the way that they are...that they must change to be accepted...so let us SOLVE your problems by making you just like US!!!

Disabilities are just obstacles to overcome (my words!) and we all have them...they are a test of character and its who we are inside that counts...the kids I work with are so full of life and energy...they have no problem with who they are...they just want to be accepted and treated just like everyone else...not felt sorry for...and if that could happen altering their genes would not be necessary...

You say that humans have been altering genes for ages...that does not make it right...just because we CAN do something or we have the RIGHT to do it doesn't mean we should...

I suggest you read the works of Dr. David Suzuki...he explains both the pros and cons of genetic engineering very well...and in my opinion the cons outway the pros...Dr. David Suzuki's work is very interesting and a must read for everyone...I also suggest you read George Orwell's "1984"...because with gene altering that's where we are headed...

As you can tell I am very passionate about this subject and I apologize if I have offended anyone...but I feel humans are the most selfish of creatures...making OUR lives better...but we can care less about creatures in the wild who continue to thrive (except those that WE destroyed!!!!) the same way they did thousands of years ago...by pure survival...Humans ARE animals too...no better, no worse than any other creature...and we should not interfear....
 

nifran

Small Fish
Jul 28, 2003
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#16
Little bit of humor...

Anyone here read the comic Userfriendly?

It's a "geek" comic stip basically about tech support at an ISP.... anyway, back on subject - for the last couple days they've had this fish as the subject of thier strip... links to the strips about the fish below:

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030729

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030730

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030731

http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20030801

They don't appear to be done making fun of it yet, just thought I'd share. :)
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
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NY USA
#18
Hawkeye, when you use such a phrase as "Human beings have to die...the herd needs to be thinned out (sounds cold but that's reallity)" it certainly didn't sound like you were including able-bodied folk, especially when in the previous paragraph you speak of children with disabilities being born and sueing because they were not genetically "fixed."

My niece is disabled. Tasha, has a muscular and developmental disorder that doctors don't even know what it is. Her mind is intact, she's got the mental abilities of every other 9 year old girl. But she cannot speak due to deformation of her soft palet. She can't even use sign language because her hands are so twisted. She can't walk, she can't feed herself, her smile lights up a room, and her eyes are so expressive you can get lost in them. Her body is constantly in pain, sometimes so great the only release she has is to cry. What her mother and I wouldn't give to ease her pain. If there was some way, genetic or otherwise, that we could give Tasha the ability to end her pain, to see her muscles untwist from themselves so she could grow without the agony, we'd be first there. Whould her mother have known she was disabled in the womb, I don't know what she'd've done, but I'm sure she probably would've taken any measure not to make Tasha perfect, but to prevent the amount of pain and suffering she has had to go through because of her disability. She wouldn't change Tasha for the world.

Hawkeye, you state that such a disability might be a character builder, an obsticle to overcome. Why is it such an obsticle? Why must it be overcome if you also state that people need to be accepted for whom they are? Tasha's disability, it certainly is an obstical, but not for her. She has lived this way all her nine years of life and knows know other way to be. It is definately draining on her mother, who has been fraught and frazzled trying to arrange her life to be at Tasha's beck and call. Her mother has difficulty maintaining a job because of Tasha's physical therapy hours, has trouble financially because some of Tasha's specialist are not covered by insurance, and she is emotinally overwrought by having to deal with her child's suffering, with the new "problems" that pop up as Tasha's body attempts to go through puberty and growth the way a "normal" child's body does, and each new growth spurt brings on new challenges. Caring for Tasha is certainly challenging and character building as we struggle to accept that she will have this disability for her entire life, and that life may be short. But for Tasha? She loves the Backstreet Boys, and has a crush on one of her aides at school. Her disability is not an obsticle for her, it is the way life is. What has she to overcome except perhaps the inability to lift a fork to her own mouth? Why should she have to if her disability won't let her? Hell, I wouldn't mind someone feeding me and releasing me of that taxing effort sometimes.

Herds are thinned because of illness and weakness, old age and accidents. Predators don't often take down a healthy individual, and natural selection will have healthy individuals reproduce more healthy individuals to keep the species from extinction. Humans have no other natural predator but themselves, so how else to thin the human herd unless we thin out ourselves? Shall we start the great ovens again, and have a lottery as to see which of us should die the great, glorious death so that others may live and our world not be over-run by out of control reproducing humans? Seems an easy concept when you think that, "rather you than me" attitude. Would you readily walk into your own death so that someone else may live the life you want? Or would you have natural selection mark the sick and infirm, the aged and disabled? Shall we all give up techonology completely, return to being hunter/gatherers, and toss aside all medical advancement along with it. I don't think a single one of us today would survive against a pride of hungry lions without at least a stone ax for defense. Tasha would be the first to make a meal seeing as how she'd be unable to flee unless the human herd carried her.

I've read "1984", I have also read the "I, Robot" series, I have also read "Stranger in a Strange Land," and "Soylent Green" and "The Heart of Darkness" and "Star Wars" and the "2001" series, and "Star Trek" novels and "Feirenheight 461". Science fiction is a cartharis of fears and imagination. There are two sides to every science fiction story, and your own perceptions of our world today color how you read such books, either with fear or with hope. But you cannot have it one way or the other in reallity. In order to reap the benefits, you must also face the horrors.

No, I'm not religious either. But religion colors perception. We have a USA president right now trying to ban stem cell research because he is a TV Eveanglist. That is his interpretation of God. Why does it also have to be mine? Such moves as his are only going to drive research underground, where there will be no control over it, where the horrors of science fiction can more easily become reallities. Religion is used to stop sexual education, is used to stop research, is used as an excuse to live in fear. To understand people's fear, you have to get inside and understand their religion. Religion isn't just a book or a preacher, religion is the internal digestion and intergration of mass opinion manifesting itself in a metaphor of social behaviors. You can take any one of your science fiction novels and make a religion out of it. "Stranger in a Strange Land" is prime example of that!

The "just because we can doesn't mean we should" argument is one that rackles me always. If we weren't meant to do something, why the heck are we able to in the first place? Do you think Ford was worried about whether he should develop the automobile just because he could? Do you think if he knew about global warming, about habitat fragmentation, about how quickly disease will be spread because of ease of transportation he've thrown his blue-prints in the garbage? Bell wasn't the only person to invent the telephone, which goes to show that if it isn't you who discovered it, someone else will. "Necessity is the mother of invention" and if such things as transgentics weren't necessary, there would have been no need for such research, it wouldn't be funded, and we wouldn't be having these debates today.

Someone, somewhere, somehow needs transgentic research to progress, needs stem-cell research to progress. Research can't be done for research sake anymore. In order to get funding, especially in genetic research, you must prove to those with the money how that research will benefit humankind or benefit the Earth in some way. All research has to be presented as such, or else no one will fund it. Even millitary research must benefit humans in some way, even if it means the mass distruction of "Them" to preserve "Us".

Humans are animals, and we cannot help but to interfere. Elephants interfere when they strip trees for food, causing desertfication. Wolves interfere when they kill a deer. All animals inerfere with the lives of all others. All animals are selfish. Trust me, your dog does not love you because of the goodness of its heart, it does so because it fears your dominance and because you feed it. Taking humans off the pedistal doesn't mean raising others above us. Read "Catchalot" by Allen Dean Foster. Talk about a species-ego driven story. Humans are surviving, simple as that, and if it was between me and a pack of lions, I personally am not prepared to die.
~~Colesea
 

lizwinz

Large Fish
Oct 22, 2002
400
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Racine, WI
#19
wow....okay first of all, i dont have a problem with this subject being brought up again...it contains alot of information that wasnt in the other threads...also i'm not a very criticle person and i dont expect everyone to read all the old threads on this board before they post

and if i had a problem with it, i wouldnt reply to it;)

also i didnt misunderstand hawkeyes post at all...i think the point was that disabled people and their families would have a harder time in a world in which most people are born "perfect" through genenic research

although i dont know that i think genetic research is wrong...advances in the medical field have left us with little in the way of natural selection to keep us healthy...so would genectic research be a way to correct this? i dont know but its something to think about

also i dont think anyone said adoption is wrong but unprotected sex and not taking care of your responsibilties ARE...while adoption is the best alternative if you decide you cant care for a child and many childless couples have their prayers answered this way, it is rather sad that there are some people who would give up their own child:( even if it is in the best interest of the child and is a loving choice...its still sad that circumstances are such

well on to the subject of the thread:D...i'll say what i said before, i dont have a problem with the research that produced these fish (i dont know enough about it to judge, it could well be its something very benifical) but i have a big problem with them being sold as "pets"...if they gain popularity how long will it be before we have a bunch of jerks taking the cheap route and painting/dyeing fish to get the same colors and make money on them...we have enough painted fish and i think that this will create more demand for them

--liz:)
 

CoNMaN

Large Fish
Jul 1, 2003
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#20
Okay all the perfect baby talk is very wrong. It will be a very very very long time before we have perfect babies, by then we wont even have mothers anymore either, babies wont be born only put together with parts of people's bodies that have retired. Then assemble a new person (robot) out of that persons still usable parts plus some new ones growing in a freezer. Then that new person wont have to go through birth/puberty/mariage/ or whatever and can go right back into the work place. We have lost the topic, it is a glowing fish. A fish. A fish that was bought at a store, born in a store, and then laid eggs, then had its babys taken from it before it would eat them, had their eggs altered with a big scary word "genetically". This is a good thing that we have scientists that can do this. This isn't even a step yet. this is crawling.
 

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