Zero Water Change System

Orion

Orion

Ultimate Fish
Moderator
#81
Feb 10, 2003
5,803
3
38
Kentucky
www.thefishcave.net
#81
I try to read everything in a non-bias manner as well, but when you end a post with "I won't back down...", there just really isn't any other way to take it other than really edgy, and borderline jerk. To be quite frank with you, all your posts regarding this subject have been very accusatory - 'Guilty till proven innocent' type of deal.

And I agree with you 100% about the companies that like to prey on the ones who just don't know any better. Heaven knows there are plenty out there. But lets at least give the ones like Hi-Q who are willing to give test systems to random people to test the benefit of the doubt before we start the witch hunt :)

And I sure ain't saying to hush up. If you've got questions, by all means ask away. I think it's safe to say that all of us have questions about this system. But in the same way that you say you read other peoples posts, keep in mind how other people might read yours. Perception is 99.9% of reality on the internet.
 

FroggyFox

FroggyFox

Forum Manager
Moderator
#82
May 16, 2003
8,589
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Colorado
#82
As for controls, I think that Tal's own tank's past is his control...and for me, every other tank I've ever setup is a control. Tal knows what his tank maintenance was like before the system, he knows what his levels were etc. I have set up many tanks and know what they're typical cycling process is like. Fishkeeping is not 100% science. Science plays a big part and things go a lot more smoothly if you know what is going on in your tank chemically, but a lot of fishkeeping is skill, experience and even a large part chance. The tests are only as comprehensive as we make them...and having any actual test is more than most people are willing to do for different things in this hobby.
 

Chris_A

Chris_A

Large Fish
#83
Oct 14, 2008
615
0
0
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
#83
I will try to keep that in mind. Thank you. :)

To be completely honest about Hi-Q allowing the tests... that's what kinda concernes me. Do they even know about the possible issues?!? Not to mention the lack of willingness to provide MSDS sends up warning flags to me. While they might not be required to release them by US law, I have delt with many US aquarium companies that POST it (Seachem would be a good example) regardless of wheather or not they have to.

Anyway, I truly wish this was a good debate over coffee lol ;)! I know I tend to come across as overly formal when writing at times and that can be a very small jump to "jerk" in an informal setting. I do appologize to anyone who is getting that vibe from me.

Chris
 

Chris_A

Chris_A

Large Fish
#84
Oct 14, 2008
615
0
0
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
#84
FroggyFox said:
As for controls, I think that Tal's own tank's past is his control...and for me, every other tank I've ever setup is a control. Tal knows what his tank maintenance was like before the system, he knows what his levels were etc. I have set up many tanks and know what they're typical cycling process is like. Fishkeeping is not 100% science. Science plays a big part and things go a lot more smoothly if you know what is going on in your tank chemically, but a lot of fishkeeping is skill, experience and even a large part chance. The tests are only as comprehensive as we make them...and having any actual test is more than most people are willing to do for different things in this hobby.
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Absolutely, previous experience counts for a lot. The thing with "skill" for aquariums is it still falls back on science. Great example... so you have a tank full of fish at the surface gasping, fins clamped looking pretty pail if not kinda white. Safe bet it's going to be a case of Nitrite poisoning. Once one has been doing this long enough, you don't even bother testing (or only do a confirmation test), you do a w/c, add some salt (if you can), maybe (if you normally use it) add some prime and carry on ;). Your observation and skill is still based off of the base science.

In the Hi-Q system, it's new. There really is only the rudimentry base science here because of it. And without more control tanks the whole thing becomes antidoctal. It still provides valuable information and insight into the system but without those control tanks it's still open to human interpretation and therefor error. A good example of that. I think back to some of my first tanks, WOW were they beautiful! I loved those tanks, but when I think about the sytems they had, how they were set up, ect. I have NO IDEA how they could have been lol ;). I'm re-reading that and I hope you get what I mean...

Chris
 

Orion

Orion

Ultimate Fish
Moderator
#85
Feb 10, 2003
5,803
3
38
Kentucky
www.thefishcave.net
#85
Well, each to their own about the MSDS data. Anything sold for consumer use would have to be diluted down to be safe in the hands of any idiot (and I am NOT calling anyone here an idiot. Just the public in general. But I can recall several good blonde moments that Froggy's had over the years LOL). But I understand why you or anyone else would want to have hold of one to see what all was in the stuff.

And for the record, I am having my afternoon coffee as I type :) Don't worry about anything, it's hard to understand the 'tone' from just reading someones words at times. I always enjoy a spirited debate so long everyone can keep their heads about them.
 

brian1973

brian1973

Superstar Fish
#86
Jan 20, 2008
2,001
3
38
Corpus Christi, Texas
#86
Ok as you all know I try to stay out of confrontaional issues..lmao..No disrespect intended to froggy or TAL, or anyone else here...I tend to agree with Chris on this one..the problem is we dont know the guidlines of the tests being performed..I realize we dont have to be informed but being as TAL mentioned in his thread he considers this out test, it would be nice to see the test guidelines..It is very generous to allow any one to test this for free, but how long is the test timeframe, I agree this has to be a long term test just because it works for 6 months how will it work in 12 or 24? TAL has a community tank..not sure what froggy is putting in hers yet..she may have mentioned it and i could have mentioned it..but I personally want to see how it works with a 90G with a heavy bioload..lol. Seriously how will it work with larger messy fish compared to tanks that are lightly stocked communities.
 

FroggyFox

FroggyFox

Forum Manager
Moderator
#87
May 16, 2003
8,589
10
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42
Colorado
#87
Hey now...Orion just because you have blackmail on me doesn't mean you have to share!! :D

Brian - I REALLY think you're overthinking the whole thing. lol The guidelines of the test are simple...there really aren't any. In my mind it is to test how the system does in a practical application over time, while following the directions in the box as well as possible. The only actual tests that we will be running will be the usual, ammonia, ph, nitrite, nitrate...and if we feel like doing otherse we can. I have discussed my stock in my thread, it will be a community tank with a twist. You won't be seeing a 90 gallon anything in the testing because its only rated up to a 55 gallon tank.

The point is not to attempt to get the system to fail, its to test its capabilities and functions compared to what it says it can do.
 

brian1973

brian1973

Superstar Fish
#88
Jan 20, 2008
2,001
3
38
Corpus Christi, Texas
#88
FroggyFox said:
Hey now...Orion just because you have blackmail on me doesn't mean you have to share!! :D

Brian - You won't be seeing a 90 gallon anything in the testing because its only rated up to a 55 gallon tank.

The point is not to attempt to get the system to fail, its to test its capabilities and functions compared to what it says it can do.
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Well crap...I dont even have to follow the tests then..lol..
 

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