Zero Water Change System
- Thread starter overstockednewb
- Start date
lol I did actually go home for lunch to let my dog out, but I couldn't let myself do anything but bring the box inside. We're pretty shorthanded at work right now, I actually am working some OT tonight and tomorrow night...but I'm sure I'll open the box as soon as I get home tonight and see about setting it up 
As mechanically un-inclined as I am, it could be interesting seeing how easy the setup is
As mechanically un-inclined as I am, it could be interesting seeing how easy the setup is
Chris_A
Most "new" things nowadays are new utilizations of components that have
existed for years. What makes the system unique is that it combines an
outside power filter and rfug filter, and most especially that the "towers"
provide an environment for bacteria to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas making the eco-magic tee first aquarium filter system to complete the nitrogen cycle.
The problem with phosphates is that in large quantities they can cause an algae bloom. In freshwater having lots of good fast-growing plants uses up the phosphates. However, we are basically suggesting that the EM should be used for a fish only tank -- and with only fish phosphates should not be a major problem as they are with inverts and reef tanks in general.
If the risk is “reverse” nitrification (i. convert nitrates into
nitrite and ammonia) as I understand that it would have to be taking place
in a tank where the water conditions would probably not support fish life.
Unfortunately I cannot send you a filter system for testing without you representing an organization.
Our Test Guidelines
• The project must be announced on the forum prior to its commencement.
• The "public" phase of the test must begin and end on a fixed date.
• The person(s) evaluating the product must test the water quality on a weekly basis (at minimum) and compile this data for release to the forum upon completion of the test.
• The person(s) evaluating the product must post weekly updates to the forum members on the general condition of the test tank and performance of the filter.
• Hi-Q will be allowed to post answers to forum members’ questions about the product.
• When the test is complete, the evaluator must post a conclusion statement on the performance of the product.
MSDS information is for employees’ only upon request. They are only required to be disclosed when dealing with things containing hazardous materials. You’re more than welcome to ask via our site.
Sorry for the late response. Although I would love to spend more time on great forums like MyFishTank.net unfortunately I can only spend a couple minutes a day catching up with the threads.
I’d also like to thank everyone on here for welcoming Hi-Q USA with open arms. We feel that MyFishTank.net is a great resource tool to the fish keeping community.
Thanks,
Luke
Most "new" things nowadays are new utilizations of components that have
existed for years. What makes the system unique is that it combines an
outside power filter and rfug filter, and most especially that the "towers"
provide an environment for bacteria to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas making the eco-magic tee first aquarium filter system to complete the nitrogen cycle.
The problem with phosphates is that in large quantities they can cause an algae bloom. In freshwater having lots of good fast-growing plants uses up the phosphates. However, we are basically suggesting that the EM should be used for a fish only tank -- and with only fish phosphates should not be a major problem as they are with inverts and reef tanks in general.
If the risk is “reverse” nitrification (i. convert nitrates into
nitrite and ammonia) as I understand that it would have to be taking place
in a tank where the water conditions would probably not support fish life.
Unfortunately I cannot send you a filter system for testing without you representing an organization.
Our Test Guidelines
• The project must be announced on the forum prior to its commencement.
• The "public" phase of the test must begin and end on a fixed date.
• The person(s) evaluating the product must test the water quality on a weekly basis (at minimum) and compile this data for release to the forum upon completion of the test.
• The person(s) evaluating the product must post weekly updates to the forum members on the general condition of the test tank and performance of the filter.
• Hi-Q will be allowed to post answers to forum members’ questions about the product.
• When the test is complete, the evaluator must post a conclusion statement on the performance of the product.
MSDS information is for employees’ only upon request. They are only required to be disclosed when dealing with things containing hazardous materials. You’re more than welcome to ask via our site.
Sorry for the late response. Although I would love to spend more time on great forums like MyFishTank.net unfortunately I can only spend a couple minutes a day catching up with the threads.
I’d also like to thank everyone on here for welcoming Hi-Q USA with open arms. We feel that MyFishTank.net is a great resource tool to the fish keeping community.
Thanks,
Luke
HiQ-USA from what I understand looking at the website we're supposed to set it up per the instructions, add water and let it run for a couple of days. Then we're supposed to add plants and then start slowly adding fish up to the stocking level, all while adding in the different additives at the appropriate times (I didn't memorize them yet lol). So with that very base description I have a couple of questions and I'm sure everyone else does too. My two burning questions right now are:
1) How many plants/how heavily planted should it be? I read that it pretty much needs plants right? I am using a 46 gallon bowfront that has only stock lighting so putting plants in there is very difficult. Also in the back of my head I remember having a lot of conversations surrounding how plant roots and UGF plates do not get along very well. Can I get some input on the plant situation from you?
2) What kind of time frame should we be looking at between start-up to full stocking? Normally I'd wait for a tank to cycle before adding additional fish and in a normal fish-in cycle I'd use water changes to keep the levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates down to a liveable level...so adding more than a couple fish to an uncycled tank certainly scares me a little bit. I guess I can just see how it goes with the levels and if they're too high I wont be adding additional fish. Does that sound reasonable?
1) How many plants/how heavily planted should it be? I read that it pretty much needs plants right? I am using a 46 gallon bowfront that has only stock lighting so putting plants in there is very difficult. Also in the back of my head I remember having a lot of conversations surrounding how plant roots and UGF plates do not get along very well. Can I get some input on the plant situation from you?
2) What kind of time frame should we be looking at between start-up to full stocking? Normally I'd wait for a tank to cycle before adding additional fish and in a normal fish-in cycle I'd use water changes to keep the levels of ammonia, nitrites and nitrates down to a liveable level...so adding more than a couple fish to an uncycled tank certainly scares me a little bit. I guess I can just see how it goes with the levels and if they're too high I wont be adding additional fish. Does that sound reasonable?
We all appreciate everyone's enthusiasm. Right now HiQ-USA has picked out two members and have sent them system's to test. Unless something happens to these members and they aren't able to complete the tests, no other test systems are going to be going out to anyone. If anymore systems were going to be tested in the 'wild', we would sure let everyone know.
We'll leave the plant stocking option up to you. If you'd like to stock the tank with plants that's great. Unlike traditional under gravel filters the Eco Magic's revers under gravel filter works great with plants. If it's inconvenient for you to add plants. It won't affect the system negatively.
In or system, the nitrogen cycle starter (Bio Magic) typically cycles the aquarium within two weeks so we would only suggest stocking after the cycle period. Ammonia and nitrite levels increase only slightly during the initial phase of the cycle. After the two or three week period of the tank being started, ammonia and nitrite almost always go to 0. We have heavily stocked tanks here that do this. The great thing about our system is that it's more effective in handling the critical period of the first two or three weeks regarding ammonia and nitrite levels than any other filter set up that I've used. Once the tank has been started, it's been cycled and it's been running ammonia and nitrite are literally 0 most of the time.
In or system, the nitrogen cycle starter (Bio Magic) typically cycles the aquarium within two weeks so we would only suggest stocking after the cycle period. Ammonia and nitrite levels increase only slightly during the initial phase of the cycle. After the two or three week period of the tank being started, ammonia and nitrite almost always go to 0. We have heavily stocked tanks here that do this. The great thing about our system is that it's more effective in handling the critical period of the first two or three weeks regarding ammonia and nitrite levels than any other filter set up that I've used. Once the tank has been started, it's been cycled and it's been running ammonia and nitrite are literally 0 most of the time.
The SYSTEM has arrived. I will be starting a new thread dedicated to the system.
I look forward to sharing this all with you. As you know, my poerspective on this is as a person newer to fishkeeping and with a busy lifestyle.
There are guidelines for the review and I will inform you of those. I go into this more expecting to significantly reduce water changed than to eliminate them but I will keep an open mind. I hope you all do too.
HI-Q will also be on the thread responding to your questions. Please direct all specific or technology related questions to them. I will be happy to answer question that deal with set-up and use and water quality.
Pictures will also be posted because we all know how much we like pictures here at MFT.
I look forward to sharing this all with you. As you know, my poerspective on this is as a person newer to fishkeeping and with a busy lifestyle.
There are guidelines for the review and I will inform you of those. I go into this more expecting to significantly reduce water changed than to eliminate them but I will keep an open mind. I hope you all do too.
HI-Q will also be on the thread responding to your questions. Please direct all specific or technology related questions to them. I will be happy to answer question that deal with set-up and use and water quality.
Pictures will also be posted because we all know how much we like pictures here at MFT.
Luke,
I do appologize for the late response. Some factors beyond my control make every second week rather difficult for me to operate on any level let alone have an in depth conversation. Again... I am sorry.
"What makes the system unique is that it combines an
outside power filter and rfug filter, and most especially that the "towers"
provide an environment for bacteria to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas making the eco-magic tee first aquarium filter system to complete the nitrogen cycle."
Unfortunately that is not all that unique. There have been a few systems on the market (most come and gone to my knowledge) that have advocated using similar methods with similar medias. In point of fact I can think of at least 3 shops in my area that use an almost identical "tower" design for their central systems. So far as completing the nitrogen cycle... not so much. There is a less known system that if maintained properly works wonderfly in freshwater. The NNR or Jaubert Style Plenum. The down side to the media that is in your system is it is suceptible to biofouling on the surface which quickly makes anoxic conditions anerobic. If that happens you start running into issues with ammonification. IE, those condittions you were refering to that wouldn't support fish form in the interiour of the media.
"The problem with phosphates is that in large quantities they can cause an algae bloom. In freshwater having lots of good fast-growing plants uses up the phosphates. However, we are basically suggesting that the EM should be used for a fish only tank -- and with only fish phosphates should not be a major problem as they are with inverts and reef tanks in general."
Very true. That said though I have seen more than one person leave the hobby because of excessive algae growth so treating it cavelierly would be detrimental to a company that wants repeat sales. Also, how do you recommend removing large amounts of algae with out water changes? Phosphates aside, what about the DOC's and in specific Hormones? Are you aware of the biological process that stunts fish growth? It starts with having healthy fish releasing growth inhibiting hormones. If those are not removed (normally through water changes) the fish stops growing externally but it's eyes and internal organs do not. They continue to grow until they are fatally damaged. You know, skip the DOC's... I just want to know how this system deals with hormones.
So... it is Heterotrophic bacteria I take it? While no, "reverse" nitrification (ammonification) was not my main concern, like I said above it could be an issue in the tower media. What I was refering to is the exact same reason that Cycle (and most other bacteria based products) do not work as advertised. The het's are responsible for breaking down solid waste into liquid waste giving the illusion of a "clean" tank. The risk is that if the dosing regime is changed or missed there could be an increase in NH3/NH4. The actual nitrogen fixing bacteria (Chemolithotrophs) are quite sensitive to excessive NH3/4 which could be produced then. The basic effect would be a "mini" cycle in an established, stocked tank. Never a good thing... (BTW, I am aware that at least one cycling product is from the Detroit water treatment facility and it is used for solid waste... It wouldn't suprise me if more were too)
"Unfortunately I cannot send you a filter system for testing without you representing an organization."
And
"MSDS information is for employees’ only upon request. They are only required to be disclosed when dealing with things containing hazardous materials."
That can be arranged... I still have a few friends and many contacts in the industry. Plus I have been thinking of a part time job for a while now... Seems like a good time I guess. Do you have any Canadian distributers at the moment?
Thank you for your time.
Chris
I do appologize for the late response. Some factors beyond my control make every second week rather difficult for me to operate on any level let alone have an in depth conversation. Again... I am sorry.
"What makes the system unique is that it combines an
outside power filter and rfug filter, and most especially that the "towers"
provide an environment for bacteria to convert nitrates into nitrogen gas making the eco-magic tee first aquarium filter system to complete the nitrogen cycle."
Unfortunately that is not all that unique. There have been a few systems on the market (most come and gone to my knowledge) that have advocated using similar methods with similar medias. In point of fact I can think of at least 3 shops in my area that use an almost identical "tower" design for their central systems. So far as completing the nitrogen cycle... not so much. There is a less known system that if maintained properly works wonderfly in freshwater. The NNR or Jaubert Style Plenum. The down side to the media that is in your system is it is suceptible to biofouling on the surface which quickly makes anoxic conditions anerobic. If that happens you start running into issues with ammonification. IE, those condittions you were refering to that wouldn't support fish form in the interiour of the media.
"The problem with phosphates is that in large quantities they can cause an algae bloom. In freshwater having lots of good fast-growing plants uses up the phosphates. However, we are basically suggesting that the EM should be used for a fish only tank -- and with only fish phosphates should not be a major problem as they are with inverts and reef tanks in general."
Very true. That said though I have seen more than one person leave the hobby because of excessive algae growth so treating it cavelierly would be detrimental to a company that wants repeat sales. Also, how do you recommend removing large amounts of algae with out water changes? Phosphates aside, what about the DOC's and in specific Hormones? Are you aware of the biological process that stunts fish growth? It starts with having healthy fish releasing growth inhibiting hormones. If those are not removed (normally through water changes) the fish stops growing externally but it's eyes and internal organs do not. They continue to grow until they are fatally damaged. You know, skip the DOC's... I just want to know how this system deals with hormones.
So... it is Heterotrophic bacteria I take it? While no, "reverse" nitrification (ammonification) was not my main concern, like I said above it could be an issue in the tower media. What I was refering to is the exact same reason that Cycle (and most other bacteria based products) do not work as advertised. The het's are responsible for breaking down solid waste into liquid waste giving the illusion of a "clean" tank. The risk is that if the dosing regime is changed or missed there could be an increase in NH3/NH4. The actual nitrogen fixing bacteria (Chemolithotrophs) are quite sensitive to excessive NH3/4 which could be produced then. The basic effect would be a "mini" cycle in an established, stocked tank. Never a good thing... (BTW, I am aware that at least one cycling product is from the Detroit water treatment facility and it is used for solid waste... It wouldn't suprise me if more were too)
"Unfortunately I cannot send you a filter system for testing without you representing an organization."
And
"MSDS information is for employees’ only upon request. They are only required to be disclosed when dealing with things containing hazardous materials."
That can be arranged... I still have a few friends and many contacts in the industry. Plus I have been thinking of a part time job for a while now... Seems like a good time I guess
. Do you have any Canadian distributers at the moment? Thank you for your time.
Chris
I was just actually looking at one of these things, but then I bought my fluval instead.
I'm getting ready to upgrade one of my tanks from a 35 gal to a 60 gal and I think that if I go for it, this thread may either persuade me or dissuade me from doing it.
I just really don't want to spend yet another 100.00 on my tank. This is no longer a hobby with how much I've spent over the years... LOL
If I do decide to go for it, I would be happy to be the reporter in the wild on this thing, as I detest water changes and love forums with pictures and lots of data.. I admit that I don't do them as often as I should in my established tanks, now I would have a reason. But I also have way less stocking in those tanks than a lot of people would.
Awesome thread, definitely subscribing to see what happens!
I'm getting ready to upgrade one of my tanks from a 35 gal to a 60 gal and I think that if I go for it, this thread may either persuade me or dissuade me from doing it.
I just really don't want to spend yet another 100.00 on my tank. This is no longer a hobby with how much I've spent over the years... LOL
If I do decide to go for it, I would be happy to be the reporter in the wild on this thing, as I detest water changes and love forums with pictures and lots of data.. I admit that I don't do them as often as I should in my established tanks, now I would have a reason. But I also have way less stocking in those tanks than a lot of people would.
Awesome thread, definitely subscribing to see what happens!
As I said in one of the other threads I had a buddy read over some of this info. He brought up an interesting (yet REALLY basic) point I missed entirely... What about evaporation? What is the recommended practice for topping up evap with this system? Over the long term tap water is no good for the same reason one NEVER tops up a marine tank with salt water... The disolved minerals don't evaporate, only pure H2O does. Does that mean one should only run this system if they are willing to buy a RO/DI/Distiller? Or the product water from any of those?
Chris
P.S. I won't back down... Make me a believer with SCIENCE or ban me...
Chris
P.S. I won't back down... Make me a believer with SCIENCE or ban me...
Chris...chill man really lol This is why we're testing the systems and HiQ has been nothing but nice and informative about their product. No need to be combative. Ask your questions, make your points...but you don't need to continue skating on the edge of being confrontational or you'll just get a reputation for being a jerk.
As far as I understand, the directions are to tap off evaporation with whatever your water source is. One of the reasons many of us are interested to see how the system performs long term is because of the total dissolved solids and all of the things we warn about with "old tank syndrome" and tank crashes (pH) for people who try to run a tank without doing water changes.
lol This is why we're testing the systems and HiQ has been nothing but nice and informative about their product. No need to be combative. Ask your questions, make your points...but you don't need to continue skating on the edge of being confrontational or you'll just get a reputation for being a jerk.As far as I understand, the directions are to tap off evaporation with whatever your water source is. One of the reasons many of us are interested to see how the system performs long term is because of the total dissolved solids and all of the things we warn about with "old tank syndrome" and tank crashes (pH) for people who try to run a tank without doing water changes.
I truly do not mean to come off as a jerk. Such is the failing of text I suppose . What I can`t stand though is companies who prey on people who don`t know any better. As well, so far as the tests go yes, they are a good thing don`t get me wrong... BUT they are far from comprehensive and have no control tanks for compairison (Same stocking, same water source, ect.). I don`t really blame anyone for that... how many people have that many extra tanks of the same size sitting around (other than bunker1 anyway lol )
Long come short... If someone is reading my messages try to `hear` them in a calm, controled voice that is trying to be firm and concise. To be honest... that`s how I read all posts, stops a lot of misunderstandings and possible fights.
Chris
. What I can`t stand though is companies who prey on people who don`t know any better. As well, so far as the tests go yes, they are a good thing don`t get me wrong... BUT they are far from comprehensive and have no control tanks for compairison (Same stocking, same water source, ect.). I don`t really blame anyone for that... how many people have that many extra tanks of the same size sitting around (other than bunker1 anyway lol ) Long come short... If someone is reading my messages try to `hear` them in a calm, controled voice that is trying to be firm and concise. To be honest... that`s how I read all posts, stops a lot of misunderstandings and possible fights.
Chris