Mega Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover - DIY!
- Thread starter SantaMonica
- Start date
Update:
Someone came up with a great way to attach Rug Canvas. Rug Canvas is the highest performance screen material; it is preferred over Plastic Canvas because Rug has small fibers that algae can attach tightly too. This means you get growth faster, and you get more growth sticking to the screen after cleaning (thus, no overly-cleaned bare spots). The problem with Rug is that it's a flimsy material, and the edges tend to unravel. It also won't last forever. So consider it more work, in order to get the highest performance.
Anyway, this idea is very simple, but I've not tried it. So you might have a plastic canvas version as a backup, in case you can't get the Rug working properly. You'll need to make the slot wider, to accomodate the plastic rod. The trick will be getting the right "fit" between the rod/screen, and the slot, so that the water flows smoothly. It will be trickier than a simple plasic canvas, no doubt. So plan on experimenting with it for a few days in the bathtub.
You can get Rug Canvas at any crafts/sewing store. Also, you might need to sew/glue/hotmelt/etc the loose edges so that it does not unravel.
Someone came up with a great way to attach Rug Canvas. Rug Canvas is the highest performance screen material; it is preferred over Plastic Canvas because Rug has small fibers that algae can attach tightly too. This means you get growth faster, and you get more growth sticking to the screen after cleaning (thus, no overly-cleaned bare spots). The problem with Rug is that it's a flimsy material, and the edges tend to unravel. It also won't last forever. So consider it more work, in order to get the highest performance.
Anyway, this idea is very simple, but I've not tried it. So you might have a plastic canvas version as a backup, in case you can't get the Rug working properly. You'll need to make the slot wider, to accomodate the plastic rod. The trick will be getting the right "fit" between the rod/screen, and the slot, so that the water flows smoothly. It will be trickier than a simple plasic canvas, no doubt. So plan on experimenting with it for a few days in the bathtub.
You can get Rug Canvas at any crafts/sewing store. Also, you might need to sew/glue/hotmelt/etc the loose edges so that it does not unravel.
Update Of The Day:
Waste is Food: Reef tank owners sometime get into the frame of mind of "food is food, and waste is waste". Thus they put food into the tank, and they remove waste from the tank (skimming, siphoning, waterchanges.) But actually, both food and waste are Organic, and thus are both "food" (food for something, somewhere). Corals and inverts may not directly eat the big krill that you feed your fish, but they do eat the waste from those fish. Further info:
Reef Food by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com
Waste is Food: Reef tank owners sometime get into the frame of mind of "food is food, and waste is waste". Thus they put food into the tank, and they remove waste from the tank (skimming, siphoning, waterchanges.) But actually, both food and waste are Organic, and thus are both "food" (food for something, somewhere). Corals and inverts may not directly eat the big krill that you feed your fish, but they do eat the waste from those fish. Further info:
Reef Food by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com
I spent some time reviewing the begining of this thread and noticed that most of the pictures showed bright green thick mats of algea on the screen. I am not getting that after 5 weeks. I am getting dark brown/red stuff and it's only about 1/4" combined. I did use some of the brown/red stuff to seed the new screen when I built it. Should I rebuild the screen and seed it with some hair algae from the tank?
Also, at the bottom of my sump beneath the screen there is red/brown slime forming (see picture). Should I remove/treat for this or can it be concidered benefitial?
Thanks!
Also, at the bottom of my sump beneath the screen there is red/brown slime forming (see picture). Should I remove/treat for this or can it be concidered benefitial?
Thanks!
No. As nutrients come down, the type of algae changes. Brown is good too, it just does not get thick. It still must be cleaned every week, however.
This is just due to the increased light in your sump. As your scrubber progresses, and nutrients in the water come down, it too will fade.
As above, you are getting the type of growth that grows when nutirents are high. No. As nutrients come down, the type of algae will turn green. But you must clean this brown stuff weekly, as it's dark color will completely shade the layers below it, and kill it.
This is just due to the increased light in your sump. As your scrubber progresses, and nutrients in the water come down, it too will fade.
As above, you are getting the type of growth that grows when nutirents are high. No. As nutrients come down, the type of algae will turn green. But you must clean this brown stuff weekly, as it's dark color will completely shade the layers below it, and kill it.
Successes of the Day:
todj2002 on the SWF site: "since installing scrubber, N and P are still both at zero. i cleaned it again today. not any big deal, but huge progress for me. finally beat the algae after two years of trying. using scrubber with chaeto and RO water now. finally getting somewhere."
Marine_Nick on the RP site: "Thought I'd update on my screen. When setting it up I was concerned about light pollution from the sump into the room, and noise from the falling water. as my tank is on an outside wall, I wanted to put the screen outside if possible. I already had an old 18 x 12 x 12 tank, so had it drilled and put a small wier in it, the water is pumped from the sump up and out through the wall to the screen, runs down the screen, through the weir, back through the wall and back into the sump. All of this is in a small shed I made which contains all the lighting etc, my screen is 18 inches tall by 12 inches wide and has a light on either side. Screen has been running now for 4 weeks, and my nitrates have dropped from 30 to 7 and phosphate from 0.25 to 0. In the last 4 weeks, nothing else has changed in my tank other than more fish being introduced, and therefore more food being added, and still the parameters have dropped!! Overall I'm really happy with results so far and hope to see the nitrates drop to zero in the next week or two. Big thanks to Santa Monica for this thread and all the info!"
jtrembley on the MD site: "I got frustrated with the skimmer (EuroReef, rated for 80) on my 40 gallon a while back. It was pulling out *lots* of crud, but I was having trouble with detritus building up, and rising P values. Since yanking the skimmer and DIYing (poorly) a rev. 2 scrubber [acrylic box style], phosphates and nuisance algae are down, and the backlog of detritus is slowly being consumed. I'm seeing lots more worms (particularly the small ones that build white, spiraling tubes) and 'pods (amphi- and cope- that is, but not octo-). Here's the funny thing: at the 3 year stage of my 40, I started getting lots of nuisance algae, despite having one of the hands-down best skimmers for small tanks, an MCE600, on it. Thinking that I was doing something wrong, I put an MC-80 on it. After another year, I started getting more and more detritus building up in the display, despite having a *lot* (over 2k GPH) of flow. And then I noticed something else: I no longer had many fan and bristle worms, amphipods, or copepods left in the sytem, either. So...I started swapping out my old LR for new, to replenish the critters. And I tried Fauna Marin and vodka dosing. But the critters weren't really spreading, and the nuisance algae was getting worse, and my P was rising despite water changes. So, I thought about it, poked around, and looked at Eric Borneman's study of *fresh* skimmate (i.e., not stuff that was left in the cup to rot). And I realized something: having a high quality skimmer on the tank was probably stripping the tank of big chunks of its potential cleanup crew. So I took off the skimmer, and put in a turf screen to cover the water's surface in what used to be the skimmer's chamber in my sump. Low and behold: I'm feeding more; I'm once again seeing fresh worm tracks in my sand bed; the copepods are back; the nuisance algae is dying off; P is undetectable by hobby kits; and the detritus is slowly clearing up. And I'm not doing as many water changes. I checked pH this morning, it was 8.2, before the lights are on. I'm honestly not seeing the down side. So yeah, removing the skimmer and putting in a $5 turf scrubber fixed my tank of "old tank syndrome". Just for giggles, I just tested my N (0.2 or 0.5 Salifert) and P (0.05 Hanna photometer). No visible HA, turfs, or cyano in the display, and I can (easily) feed 2X cubes of Hikari mysis, some dulse, and 2 scoops' worth of Reef Chili daily (again, in a 40). And I haven't done a water change in a month. I'm honestly not seeing a downside to scrubbers at this point."
todj2002 on the SWF site: "since installing scrubber, N and P are still both at zero. i cleaned it again today. not any big deal, but huge progress for me. finally beat the algae after two years of trying. using scrubber with chaeto and RO water now. finally getting somewhere."
Marine_Nick on the RP site: "Thought I'd update on my screen. When setting it up I was concerned about light pollution from the sump into the room, and noise from the falling water. as my tank is on an outside wall, I wanted to put the screen outside if possible. I already had an old 18 x 12 x 12 tank, so had it drilled and put a small wier in it, the water is pumped from the sump up and out through the wall to the screen, runs down the screen, through the weir, back through the wall and back into the sump. All of this is in a small shed I made which contains all the lighting etc, my screen is 18 inches tall by 12 inches wide and has a light on either side. Screen has been running now for 4 weeks, and my nitrates have dropped from 30 to 7 and phosphate from 0.25 to 0. In the last 4 weeks, nothing else has changed in my tank other than more fish being introduced, and therefore more food being added, and still the parameters have dropped!! Overall I'm really happy with results so far and hope to see the nitrates drop to zero in the next week or two. Big thanks to Santa Monica for this thread and all the info!"
jtrembley on the MD site: "I got frustrated with the skimmer (EuroReef, rated for 80) on my 40 gallon a while back. It was pulling out *lots* of crud, but I was having trouble with detritus building up, and rising P values. Since yanking the skimmer and DIYing (poorly) a rev. 2 scrubber [acrylic box style], phosphates and nuisance algae are down, and the backlog of detritus is slowly being consumed. I'm seeing lots more worms (particularly the small ones that build white, spiraling tubes) and 'pods (amphi- and cope- that is, but not octo-). Here's the funny thing: at the 3 year stage of my 40, I started getting lots of nuisance algae, despite having one of the hands-down best skimmers for small tanks, an MCE600, on it. Thinking that I was doing something wrong, I put an MC-80 on it. After another year, I started getting more and more detritus building up in the display, despite having a *lot* (over 2k GPH) of flow. And then I noticed something else: I no longer had many fan and bristle worms, amphipods, or copepods left in the sytem, either. So...I started swapping out my old LR for new, to replenish the critters. And I tried Fauna Marin and vodka dosing. But the critters weren't really spreading, and the nuisance algae was getting worse, and my P was rising despite water changes. So, I thought about it, poked around, and looked at Eric Borneman's study of *fresh* skimmate (i.e., not stuff that was left in the cup to rot). And I realized something: having a high quality skimmer on the tank was probably stripping the tank of big chunks of its potential cleanup crew. So I took off the skimmer, and put in a turf screen to cover the water's surface in what used to be the skimmer's chamber in my sump. Low and behold: I'm feeding more; I'm once again seeing fresh worm tracks in my sand bed; the copepods are back; the nuisance algae is dying off; P is undetectable by hobby kits; and the detritus is slowly clearing up. And I'm not doing as many water changes. I checked pH this morning, it was 8.2, before the lights are on. I'm honestly not seeing the down side. So yeah, removing the skimmer and putting in a $5 turf scrubber fixed my tank of "old tank syndrome". Just for giggles, I just tested my N (0.2 or 0.5 Salifert) and P (0.05 Hanna photometer). No visible HA, turfs, or cyano in the display, and I can (easily) feed 2X cubes of Hikari mysis, some dulse, and 2 scoops' worth of Reef Chili daily (again, in a 40). And I haven't done a water change in a month. I'm honestly not seeing a downside to scrubbers at this point."
Tell what you guys think
Well first I must say this is a awsome thread. I have been following it for a while now. As I have a algae problem in my 50g reef tank now for almost a year. So a week ago I built the original bucket style ATS, and so far so good. Algae is really starting to grow on screen. No results yet but will try to post them asap.
When I am building something I tend to think of differant ways to do things. So I came of with this. Not saying its a better ats just a differant one. Tottaly differant. Tell me what you guys think. What problems you can see arising.
There are no lights in the picture, but you would only need one directly above
Well first I must say this is a awsome thread. I have been following it for a while now. As I have a algae problem in my 50g reef tank now for almost a year. So a week ago I built the original bucket style ATS, and so far so good. Algae is really starting to grow on screen. No results yet but will try to post them asap.
When I am building something I tend to think of differant ways to do things. So I came of with this. Not saying its a better ats just a differant one. Tottaly differant. Tell me what you guys think. What problems you can see arising.
There are no lights in the picture, but you would only need one directly above
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Cheers to another Alberta person! Welcome!
The theory is fine, the only downside is it's constantly immersed (granted very shallow) so there's less availability to atmospheric CO2. Bucket ATS' solve this by surging, the new type (does it have a name yet?) solves this by having the surface in constant motion for gas exchange. Personally I think you can get better growth from the old surge style but at the cost of more space, more noise, and less reliability. For your design... I'm not really sure but I think if you had a fast enough flow rate through the container for surface movement there would be basically no dwell time for the algae to fully utilize the nutrients. Might not matter though taking into account it's a closed system. That high flow rate could also make "seeding" the screen difficult.
Please do post what you think of it if you do use this set up.
Chris
The theory is fine, the only downside is it's constantly immersed (granted very shallow) so there's less availability to atmospheric CO2. Bucket ATS' solve this by surging, the new type (does it have a name yet?) solves this by having the surface in constant motion for gas exchange. Personally I think you can get better growth from the old surge style but at the cost of more space, more noise, and less reliability. For your design... I'm not really sure but I think if you had a fast enough flow rate through the container for surface movement there would be basically no dwell time for the algae to fully utilize the nutrients. Might not matter though taking into account it's a closed system. That high flow rate could also make "seeding" the screen difficult.
Please do post what you think of it if you do use this set up.
Chris
tell me what you guys think.
Here is another idea I had. Esseantially the water lever would always be going up and down. These sprinkler valves in the drawing are around $25 from any hardware store. I have used them in the past on my potato gun. Hold 150 psi, very reliable. And easy to operate. In the picture I don't show that screen would have to be held up by something
Here is another idea I had. Esseantially the water lever would always be going up and down. These sprinkler valves in the drawing are around $25 from any hardware store. I have used them in the past on my potato gun. Hold 150 psi, very reliable. And easy to operate. In the picture I don't show that screen would have to be held up by something
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I disagree, the second design is almost identical (in principal) to the surge style ATS. In point of fact, this design gives better access to atmospheric CO2 than the rushing design because the screen is constantly being "flushed" and "drained".
I do see 2 possible problems though...
1) it relies on a float switch... The more parts, the more that can go wrong. That said though, not a reason to not try it.
2) and this is the big one... If it's the same style valve I've seen, it has metal parts in it. That would limit it to freshwater use (assuming there's no exposed copper or copper alloys).
If it is a completely plastic valve would you mind posting the brand, part #/model, and perhaps where you got it please? I'm in the market for some all plastic selenoid valves.
Chris
Edit: One other thing... You would need to work out the wiring on the float switch... Not enough coffee today, trying to wrap my brain around the wiring isn't going so well right now. I know the Float Switches I have are no where near the throw you'd need to be effective. I *know* it can be done... let me think on it for a bit lol.
I do see 2 possible problems though...
1) it relies on a float switch... The more parts, the more that can go wrong. That said though, not a reason to not try it.
2) and this is the big one... If it's the same style valve I've seen, it has metal parts in it. That would limit it to freshwater use (assuming there's no exposed copper or copper alloys).
If it is a completely plastic valve would you mind posting the brand, part #/model, and perhaps where you got it please? I'm in the market for some all plastic selenoid valves
. Chris
Edit: One other thing... You would need to work out the wiring on the float switch... Not enough coffee today, trying to wrap my brain around the wiring isn't going so well right now. I know the Float Switches I have are no where near the throw you'd need to be effective. I *know* it can be done... let me think on it for a bit lol
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Update: The Trick of Dark Brown Algae
This has now happened to many people who have new scrubbers. They get early growth, but it's not the green stuff that they see in most pics. Instead it's a dark brown super-thick "coating", or a black "tar", that looks like it was poured on:
What you have here is the type of algae that grows when nutrients are extremely high (!). After a few cleanings, when the nutirents come down, the color will lighten up to some balance point where it will stay. The big problem, however, is that people think the screen is not growing, so they leave it in to "grow more" (by not cleaning it). BIG MISTAKE! This type of algae does not grow thick, at all. It never gets more than 1/4" (6mm) or so. And worse, since it's SO DARK, it block all light from reaching the bottom layers, thus causing those layers to die and release nitrate and phosphate back into the water. So the solution is to clean ANY and ALL dark brown/black algae right away, and don't even wait until the end of the week. Basically, if you cannot see your screen, then light is not reaching it and it needs to be cleaned. You'll only have to do this a few times before the nutrients come down and the algae color lightens up. Don't fall for the Dark Brown Algae Trick.
Update: The Trick of Dark Brown Algae
This has now happened to many people who have new scrubbers. They get early growth, but it's not the green stuff that they see in most pics. Instead it's a dark brown super-thick "coating", or a black "tar", that looks like it was poured on:
What you have here is the type of algae that grows when nutrients are extremely high (!). After a few cleanings, when the nutirents come down, the color will lighten up to some balance point where it will stay. The big problem, however, is that people think the screen is not growing, so they leave it in to "grow more" (by not cleaning it). BIG MISTAKE! This type of algae does not grow thick, at all. It never gets more than 1/4" (6mm) or so. And worse, since it's SO DARK, it block all light from reaching the bottom layers, thus causing those layers to die and release nitrate and phosphate back into the water. So the solution is to clean ANY and ALL dark brown/black algae right away, and don't even wait until the end of the week. Basically, if you cannot see your screen, then light is not reaching it and it needs to be cleaned. You'll only have to do this a few times before the nutrients come down and the algae color lightens up. Don't fall for the Dark Brown Algae Trick.
I wonder about the water conditions in those tanks then... In my experience they grow quite well. Basically it switches the limiting factor from being the CO2 to the disolved nutrients. Could have been the lenght of time between surges too.
I was just thinking about it... Are you familure with a system called "Eco-Wheel" ( Eco-Wheel Filtration Systems and Algaewheel ) or the "SurgArium" systems ( MMFI, aquariums, filters, algae scrubbers, surgers, lights, wet-dry, protein skimmers, algal turf scrubbers, etc )? Had to dig out a 2001 FAMA to find those lol. These are what got me started on ATS' way back.
Chris
I was just thinking about it... Are you familure with a system called "Eco-Wheel" ( Eco-Wheel Filtration Systems and Algaewheel ) or the "SurgArium" systems ( MMFI, aquariums, filters, algae scrubbers, surgers, lights, wet-dry, protein skimmers, algal turf scrubbers, etc )? Had to dig out a 2001 FAMA to find those lol
. These are what got me started on ATS' way back. Chris
I totally forgot about the metal in these valves. But if they are intended for irrigation use, would'nt the metal be stainless? I am going to look into this.
Now I have a question for you SantaMonica. I have 2 differant lights that I am useing, both are 6400k but one is more yellowish and one is white. Is there a differance?
Now I have a question for you SantaMonica. I have 2 differant lights that I am useing, both are 6400k but one is more yellowish and one is white. Is there a differance?