Views on fish keeping

[jo3olous]

I think this is a very important thread to have, because a lot of threads concerning fish tank issues usually end up in someone saying "well your tank is improperly stocked, or your tank is not even cycled" (it's usually me if I'm to provide advice), sometimes forgetting the original problem.

-People on the thread have their own desires. Some people want to house monster fish for the pleasure of having a predatory fish to show off or watch in awe, not necessarily worrying about what it takes to allow that fish to grow and live. Some people do know the woes of this and do it with intention anyway, because the life of the fish is not important to them, just the satisfaction of saying they have one. There is a difference between not knowing and doing, and knowing but doing anyway.
-Others want to try unorthodox things for their own experimentations and have new experiences to provide.

Based on the knowledge I've gained since I have been here, and the general population of the experienced fishkeepers on this thread, the majority tend to post advice that logically makes sense, giving newer members instructions for optimal fishkeeping. Some people take in this advice, some people thwart it and do whatever they want, others get maddened by it because they want to do whatever else and they have now learned it is the less intelligent decision of the 2.

I have nothing against people that want to stray from the norm of proper fishkeeping, but please beware that when you ask such questions you will only get the most accurate an informative answers. To get anything less would take away from the reputation "I" think this forum has developed (I am saying I because this is not an MFT approved thread, it's my opinion). So posters should not be upset when they are not given the advice they do not want to hear.

Often my posts will hurt feelings or start flames because I am quick to note errors or false information. Well for the integrity of what I have learned on this forum and promoting good fishkeeping, I would hope all the regulars do it. After all we are not here to make money, we're here to share information and promote responsible and fun fish-keeping.

I will emit myself from senseless threads after sharing my input, but I think I am done with arguing right/wrong with members of the thread that prefer chaotic fish care. I'll give my advice and be one n done. Take the information and use it how you prefer, but don't get upset when you hear something you don't want to; after all you asked!

*PEACE!*



****
This doesn't cover everything I wanted to say about stuff like this, so when the responses come, I will have feedback
****

 

[hari-goshi]

Agreed. Thats what the forums are for. We cant go around telling people new to the hobby that its ok to do this or that because it sometimes works for an experienced aquariast. Its our responsibility to help people understand the basics first. And then when they have a very thorough understanding of the hobby they can figure out where they can bend the rules without complications.

 

[Kissyboots]

Good post. I have to say I was one of the ignorant ones to begin with. I had a male and female betta together and was told here that I should separate them. I didn't however. It turned out to be fine, and after I researched more, I realized that it really depends on the fish and how well they get along.

I would never recommend putting those together for beginners although I did. When you are a beginner, you should start by following the rules exactly (which is why I'm a proponent of the one-to-one rule of thumb) and then deviate from that path later when you know what you're doing.

 

[jo3olous]

Good post. I have to say I was one of the ignorant ones to begin with. I had a male and female betta together and was told here that I should separate them. I didn't however. It turned out to be fine, and after I researched more, I realized that it really depends on the fish and how well they get along.

I would never recommend putting those together for beginners although I did. When you are a beginner, you should start by following the rules exactly (which is why I'm a proponent of the one-to-one rule of thumb) and then deviate from that path later when you know what you're doing.

yep i'm guilty of being ignorant too, with my fish-in cycle. Unfortunately, I ended up with the higher % luck of losing the cycling fish, but I learned!

 

[BlueStraggler]

Guilty too.
Thanks to MFT and its users , I was able to learn what I now know about fish keeping.
And the big one: never ever trust the lfs or lps!
(very few retailers are exempt from that rule)

 

[brian1973]

Well I will say I agree with you to a certain extent, but there are ways to do things without being rude or pushy, if you read your post before submiting it and you think it may come across rude or insulting why not change it or advise readers that it may come across that way but is not meant to be, all those posts do is make the forum hostile and if you insulting someone why should they listen to what you have to say.

I agree with swordtail8 in a recent post in response to members pointing out his sig., if he didnt ask for advice dont give it, I am also going to agree that while we try to provide the best care we can, a fish doesnt not hold as much emotional attachment to me in most cases as a cat or dog. I have no problem if some wants to stock 50 platies into a 10G as long as they realize they may be causing their own problems. What I do with my fish is my problem unless I am asking for advice. Many of members here scream about how someone isnt caring for there fish properly and how much they love their fish but as soon as it dies they replace it, sorry thats not "loving" a pet, I myself put value based on many things, one of my favorite fish that almost made me give up the hobby when it died was caught from a local lake.
I dont care if someone kills a few fish during a cycle, if they dont why should you, just explain the possibilty then move on, how many of us have actually done a proper cycle, I have never done a fishless cycle. All my tanks since my first were setup with established media. I sure as heck am not going to wait 6 weeks to put fish in a darn tank, they are just fish and as long as they are guaranteed then if they die they get replaced, so be it. And before anyone asks me what gives me the right to possibly kill them, the fact that I paid for them gives me that right.

I have no problem telling newbies what they can get away with, but I also tell them what it will take to do it. The recent trend on this particular forum is actually leading me to other forums though due to the recent belittling of members when they dont fit into the "norm".

Not to point or aim this directly at you Jo3 but you say your posts commonly start flame wars etc. because your pointing out misinformation or errors The reason isnt because your pointing those things out, its because you dont use any Tact in most of those, believe me you can get alot more accomplished pointing out errors with actual experience or proof to fall back on rather than the comments you have been using lately. I dont pretend to be the nicest person on here, but no newbie wants to be critisized for their mistakes, and telling someone they shouldnt listen to thier G/F ,WIFE, etc about stocking or why they accepted a gift serves no purpose, wouldn't it make more sense to tell someone to explain the situation to their significant other rather than say it's laughable that you let her tell you what to do. Or tell someone rudely to take something back you dont want it, why not be tactful and just explain why you cant accept something.

There are no solid rules to fish keeping, there are collective experiences, and if someone wants to learn their way thats fine.

The vast majority of my posts are based on my own experiences or I refer to where the info comes from. If I havent kept a fish I am not going to give info on what you can keep it in or with, unless I know it is correct and can refer someone to where the info is.

Anyway thats my 2 cents.

 

[vahluree]

Well said, Brian!
So there are some members who are a little overbearing, a little rude maybe... but I think the only way to tip the balance is for people who dissent to speak up!! If no one offers an alternate opinion, you're doing everyone a disservice. What will new members learn? Only what the loudest person claims.
Now, that being said, EVERYONE must remember that this is a place where information/experiences are shared. Everyone should feel free to share their experience without fear of being chastized or ridiculed. So discuss. Even argue a little. But there is no reason to alienate any member, new or old, with hateful and spiteful words.*crazysmil

 

[kerridawn]

I think it's important to remember that we are all humans, we have feelings and we all make mistakes. I'm just glad there is a place that I can go to get more info so I can keep my mistakes to minimum. This is a fun hobby, and I would like to keep it fun!!! And I know that advice is that, it's just advice. Take it or leave it.

 

[Chris_A]

My basic views on fish keeping...

1) You can ask 10 different people the same question and you'll get 6 different answers with most of them not wrong...
You ask that same question to 10 different advanced aquarists and you'll get 10 different answers and not one of them will be wrong. And all will be able to see the reasoning behind the other other 9...
Obviously that doesn't apply to every topic but the point is the same.
2) There are 2 sets of reasoning and advice I will give. One for beginners because it's tried and true. One for people who want to push the envelope and show they are willing to learn.

BTW, pushing the envelope is not new... it's just not common in home aquarist circles. LFS' do it, so do public aquariums, researchers, breeders and professional aquarists. To be honest, we wouldn't be where we are today in most aspects of the hobby if people didn't try things out side the norm.

3) The day I stop learning from this hobby is the day I sell off all my tanks... No one knows it all, there's simply too much that is ever changing thanks to the people that DO push the norms in a responsible way.

Chris

 

[PCFishGuy]

*thumbsups

all well said

 

[jo3olous]

Well I will say I agree with you to a certain extent, but there are ways to do things without being rude or pushy, if you read your post before submiting it and you think it may come across rude or insulting why not change it or advise readers that it may come across that way but is not meant to be, all those posts do is make the forum hostile and if you insulting someone why should they listen to what you have to say.

I agree with swordtail8 in a recent post in response to members pointing out his sig., if he didnt ask for advice dont give it, I am also going to agree that while we try to provide the best care we can, a fish doesnt not hold as much emotional attachment to me in most cases as a cat or dog. I have no problem if some wants to stock 50 platies into a 10G as long as they realize they may be causing their own problems. What I do with my fish is my problem unless I am asking for advice. Many of members here scream about how someone isnt caring for there fish properly and how much they love their fish but as soon as it dies they replace it, sorry thats not "loving" a pet, I myself put value based on many things, one of my favorite fish that almost made me give up the hobby when it died was caught from a local lake.
I dont care if someone kills a few fish during a cycle, if they dont why should you, just explain the possibilty then move on, how many of us have actually done a proper cycle, I have never done a fishless cycle. All my tanks since my first were setup with established media. I sure as heck am not going to wait 6 weeks to put fish in a darn tank, they are just fish and as long as they are guaranteed then if they die they get replaced, so be it. And before anyone asks me what gives me the right to possibly kill them, the fact that I paid for them gives me that right.

I have no problem telling newbies what they can get away with, but I also tell them what it will take to do it. The recent trend on this particular forum is actually leading me to other forums though due to the recent belittling of members when they dont fit into the "norm".

Not to point or aim this directly at you Jo3 but you say your posts commonly start flame wars etc. because your pointing out misinformation or errors The reason isnt because your pointing those things out, its because you dont use any Tact in most of those, believe me you can get alot more accomplished pointing out errors with actual experience or proof to fall back on rather than the comments you have been using lately. I dont pretend to be the nicest person on here, but no newbie wants to be critisized for their mistakes, and telling someone they shouldnt listen to thier G/F ,WIFE, etc about stocking or why they accepted a gift serves no purpose, wouldn't it make more sense to tell someone to explain the situation to their significant other rather than say it's laughable that you let her tell you what to do. Or tell someone rudely to take something back you dont want it, why not be tactful and just explain why you cant accept something.

There are no solid rules to fish keeping, there are collective experiences, and if someone wants to learn their way thats fine.

The vast majority of my posts are based on my own experiences or I refer to where the info comes from. If I havent kept a fish I am not going to give info on what you can keep it in or with, unless I know it is correct and can refer someone to where the info is.

Anyway thats my 2 cents.

It's because where I'm from that layout of typing isn't rude duh, I'm from the city so maybe I don't talk as honky-dory; but then again maybe people shouldn't take it so offensively and always look at it objectively. Anyway, in bold I'm pretty sure I know what situation you're talking about and I think I did my best to make it sound objective and not offensive with constructive notes, the poster did not turn around and say "hey 3$@!$*@?%! you" so why should you? lol

 

[jo3olous]

This is probably one of the best threads I started

 

[FirstTimeFreshie]

I do have to say that being a relatively new member, i felt very intimidated by some of the posts by the "large fish" members. Honestly, its not my fault that i was ignorant of what i was doing when i was buying my two fish, because no offense to you guys, but not everybody is going to research their heads off before they go out and buy fish. Most people (myself included) just go out on a whim, and then they must come back and learn from their mistakes. I went out and bought my fish because I was lonely in my dorm and I wanted some company. So shoot me.

All i'm saying really is, don't jump down our throats when we make a mistake, the gentle nudge in the right direction works a lot better. And IMHO, some people learn the best from their mistakes... let them kill a few fish in a fish-in cycle if thats what it takes to teach them how to cycle properly. They're not your fish, so like Brian said, you shouldn't care how they are being treated. These people paid for the fish they now own, Unfortunately for the fish, their lives are in the hands of their owner. Nothing we can do.

 

[BlueStraggler]

It's because where I'm from that layout of typing isn't rude duh, I'm from the city so maybe I don't talk as honky-dory; but then again maybe people shouldn't take it so offensively and always look at it objectively. Anyway, in bold I'm pretty sure I know what situation you're talking about and I think I did my best to make it sound objective and not offensive with constructive notes, the poster did not turn around and say "hey 3$@!$*@?%! you" so why should you? lol

haha I'm originally from philly and I definately understand that there is a different mentality and attitude there. lol. When I moved away it was a big adjustment for me kinda like putting an aggressive fish in a community tank....but I settled down.

Now I try my best to not let the ego take control and I can handle criticism without feeling a strong urge to punch someone in the face or do the kenzo stomp on them. You know what that is right? hahaha

 

[bmoraski]

wow !

I think this is a very important thread to have, because a lot of threads concerning fish tank issues usually end up in someone saying "well your tank is improperly stocked, or your tank is not even cycled" (it's usually me if I'm to provide advice), sometimes forgetting the original problem.

-People on the thread have their own desires. Some people want to house monster fish for the pleasure of having a predatory fish to show off or watch in awe, not necessarily worrying about what it takes to allow that fish to grow and live. Some people do know the woes of this and do it with intention anyway, because the life of the fish is not important to them, just the satisfaction of saying they have one. There is a difference between not knowing and doing, and knowing but doing anyway.
-Others want to try unorthodox things for their own experimentations and have new experiences to provide.

Based on the knowledge I've gained since I have been here, and the general population of the experienced fishkeepers on this thread, the majority tend to post advice that logically makes sense, giving newer members instructions for optimal fishkeeping. Some people take in this advice, some people thwart it and do whatever they want, others get maddened by it because they want to do whatever else and they have now learned it is the less intelligent decision of the 2.

I have nothing against people that want to stray from the norm of proper fishkeeping, but please beware that when you ask such questions you will only get the most accurate an informative answers. To get anything less would take away from the reputation "I" think this forum has developed (I am saying I because this is not an MFT approved thread, it's my opinion). So posters should not be upset when they are not given the advice they do not want to hear.

Often my posts will hurt feelings or start flames because I am quick to note errors or false information. Well for the integrity of what I have learned on this forum and promoting good fishkeeping, I would hope all the regulars do it. After all we are not here to make money, we're here to share information and promote responsible and fun fish-keeping.

I will emit myself from senseless threads after sharing my input, but I think I am done with arguing right/wrong with members of the thread that prefer chaotic fish care. I'll give my advice and be one n done. Take the information and use it how you prefer, but don't get upset when you hear something you don't want to; after all you asked!

*PEACE!*



****
This doesn't cover everything I wanted to say about stuff like this, so when the responses come, I will have feedback
****

Great post dude !
i guess all forums have the same issues
Trolls-which i learned are people that just comb different forums and give bogus advice and start arguments ! Why ? i have no idea i just know that they exist.
i will also say if i need help im not worried about (my feelings or what people think of me) i just want a solution !
ive written long posts (not here but in applemac forum )and before submitting will read again and relized wow that sounded kind of rude ( i didnt mean it to ) but the person may or maynot take it that way !
oh well like i said good post dude
later
Bryan...................

 

[jo3olous]

haha I'm originally from philly and I definately understand that there is a different mentality and attitude there. lol. When I moved away it was a big adjustment for me kinda like putting an aggressive fish in a community tank....but I settled down.

Now I try my best to not let the ego take control and I can handle criticism without feeling a strong urge to punch someone in the face or do the kenzo stomp on them. You know what that is right? hahaha

hahahaha yea, I used to get 5.00 cuts in Kenzo, that area is ghetto. My GF lives in tacony (NE Philly) not pretty but much nicer....

Yea I probably get my aggressive/rude/commanding attitude from my education; I'm not trying to make my school sound bad but if you've heard of Drexels Business/Engineering school, that's just how we're brought up. People who don't prepare or research things before executing are literally laughed at, and made a fool even more if failure actually occurs. I just came fresh out of a school that was very very serious about the business world, and sometimes I treat fishcare like a successful business (not your LFS).

I'll make sure to note in my signature; my posts aren't rude, it's how i type lol. and maybe I'll start *thumbsups for the people with the common plecos in the 20 and the oscars in the 10G tanks

 

[jo3olous]

Great post dude !
i guess all forums have the same issues
Trolls-which i learned are people that just comb different forums and give bogus advice and start arguments ! Why ? i have no idea i just know that they exist.
i will also say if i need help im not worried about (my feelings or what people think of me) i just want a solution !
ive written long posts (not here but in applemac forum )and before submitting will read again and relized wow that sounded kind of rude ( i didnt mean it to ) but the person may or maynot take it that way !
oh well like i said good post dude
later
Bryan...................

Some posts just don't seem realistic at all I kid you not, but some trolls really aren't

 

[Kissyboots]

I do have to say that being a relatively new member, i felt very intimidated by some of the posts by the "large fish" members. Honestly, its not my fault that i was ignorant of what i was doing when i was buying my two fish, because no offense to you guys, but not everybody is going to research their heads off before they go out and buy fish. Most people (myself included) just go out on a whim, and then they must come back and learn from their mistakes. I went out and bought my fish because I was lonely in my dorm and I wanted some company. So shoot me.

All i'm saying really is, don't jump down our throats when we make a mistake, the gentle nudge in the right direction works a lot better. And IMHO, some people learn the best from their mistakes... let them kill a few fish in a fish-in cycle if thats what it takes to teach them how to cycle properly. They're not your fish, so like Brian said, you shouldn't care how they are being treated. These people paid for the fish they now own, Unfortunately for the fish, their lives are in the hands of their owner. Nothing we can do.

Lol, well then, I apologize on behalf of all those large fishies here (or super fish for that matter). In general, if my post was posted after 10pm mountain time in a controversial thread, pay no attention to it. I'm probably half asleep and grumpy about something. I think I should put that in my sig...lol!

 

[jo3olous]

I do have to say that being a relatively new member, i felt very intimidated by some of the posts by the "large fish" members. Honestly, its not my fault that i was ignorant of what i was doing when i was buying my two fish, because no offense to you guys, but not everybody is going to research their heads off before they go out and buy fish. Most people (myself included) just go out on a whim, and then they must come back and learn from their mistakes. I went out and bought my fish because I was lonely in my dorm and I wanted some company. So shoot me.

All i'm saying really is, don't jump down our throats when we make a mistake, the gentle nudge in the right direction works a lot better. And IMHO, some people learn the best from their mistakes... let them kill a few fish in a fish-in cycle if thats what it takes to teach them how to cycle properly. They're not your fish, so like Brian said, you shouldn't care how they are being treated. These people paid for the fish they now own, Unfortunately for the fish, their lives are in the hands of their owner. Nothing we can do.

I don't think you caught the drift of the thread entirely... or maybe I left something out. You should note that flames usually only occur when someone argues illogical situations. Kind of like this:

Newbie: Hi, my fish have holes in their heads and are missing scales. I have 3 oscars in my new 10G tank
MFTer: oscars grow too big for a 10G, they are fighting probably due to lack of space. Your tank is not cycled, you should return the fish, cycle your tank, then purchase fish suitable for your 10. Oscars should be housed in a 50+ alone and in 100G or more when in groups.
Newbie: but theyre only 2 inches each right now. I only want them to grow to the size of my tank. I'll feed them less. I don't care I want oscars
MFTer: ....


That's how flames get started, and you can guess which end I'm always on, hahaha.

 

[Kissyboots]

Some posts just don't seem realistic at all I kid you not, but some trolls really aren't

I will humorously mention TAL as an example, wherever he is right now. I totally thought he was a troll for a while, but it all turned out ok. It just takes a long time to speak to people diplomatically, especially over the internet. The short route of using caps for instance, would be quicker to get the point across, but you may not know what else is going on in that person's life and reasons behind their actions. It's best to talk it out and do so slowly to avoid conflict.