Overloaded my tank... getting cloudy... what do I do? Help ASAP :)

[Tomato Sandwich]

I am very new to this aquarium thing... so I did some dumb things!
I have a tank that measures 14 1/4 x 7 1/2 x 9 inches (so 4.2 gallons by my calculations). There is a fake plant and a no fishing sign and about an inch and a half of gravel. The tank previously had been used, and cleaned and put in storage for a couple years before it was given to me for Christmas. I filled the tank, then let it sit for 6 days while I was away. I don't live in a city with aquarium stores, so while I was away I bought fish. I didn't research the capacity, but I talked to the guy at the store and he said that this many fish should be fine. Now I think my tank is overloaded from things I've been reading. The tank is also getting very cloudy, and I put accuclear (if that's what it's called) in it 2x with no results.

In my tank I have:
3 dwarf frogs
3 neon tetras
1 small black moor
1 red cap oranda
1 plecostomus (not sure what kind, but it's under an inch long and skinny)

I have a heater, which is set to about 74 degrees and also a filter, but not sure what kind or how often it filters the water. This is day 4 of having them in the tank. When I brought them home, I put them in the tank in the bag for 20 minutes, added some water to the bag and floated it for 10 mins, then added more water and floated it for another 10 minutes. Then i netted the fish into the tank and added a dose of cycle. To float the bag in the tank I had to empty about 1/3 of the water that I had let sit in the tank for 6 days, so I had to add more water after the fish were in as I didn't think about it and dumped the water. I added tap water conditioner to the water before I put it in the tank though.

I know this is a LOT of information, and lots of it is probably unnecessary, but I thought I'd give as much detail to increase the chances of someone being able to help me. Thank you so much in advance for your help! Hopefully it's not too late!

 

[OrangeCones]

In my tank I have:
3 dwarf frogs
3 neon tetras
1 small black moor
1 red cap oranda
1 plecostomus

Oh my!! You don't have room for all of that. The only thing you have room for is one or two of the frogs. Neons should be kept in groups of 5 or more, and you don't have room in that sized tank for them. Both the black moor and the oranda need 20gallons each, or both could be kept in a 30 gallon tank. A pleco needs a minimum of 20 gallons if its a dwarf species. If its a common pleco, they get HUGE, like 2ft long, and need an equally HUGE aquarium.

You need a HUGE tank now, or to make a trip back to the store to return most of what they sold you. No way they will live long in that tank together.

 

[frankenfish]

if he got rid of everything else that tank would be big enough for 5 neons wouldn't it?

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

I don't live in a place where I can just go back to the store. Is there any way I can keep them in that tank together? Like more frequent water changes, etc. One of the neon tetras has since died, so that brings them down to two. Can any of them be taken out and put in an unheated, unfiltered tank? The guy at the pet store was obviously stupid, but he said the pleco would only grow to be an inch or so long.... is there a type of them that this is true for?

 

[beckyd]

No such thing as too much info in this situation. You got on here in the nick of time, my friend. For starters, WAY too many fish and just as importantly, a way wrong mix.
I'll get back to what to do about that.

For now, did you get any test strips or anything to check the water parameters? I will assume not, as you did not comment on them. Given that info, I'm totally guessing, so I'll focus on keeping your fish alive. Today, do a huge water change, say 75%. Leave just enough for the goldfish to stay upright. Refill and dose with cycle again. Next, 30-40% water change EVERY DAY, followed by a dose with cycle until you can get some test strips and get rid of some fish.

Call, the store and speak to a manager. Tell them what that idiot sold you and that you expect a full refund upon the return of the pleco and both goldfish whenever you can make it back. And any goldfish food or algae pellets they may have conned you into to feed them. Tell him/her that you expect better knowledge of their staff or you will not bring your business back. And that you have been very inconvenienced by the required return trip and the daily water changes to keep them all alive.

Once there, buy either a test kit or test strips. You need to know ammonia, nitrate, nitrite at minimum. Ph and the rest are a bonus. Do NOT buy any ph adjusters. Get some more Cycle or Stability instead if they have it. Same concept, just better.

Next, read the stickies about cycling a tank under the beginners section on here. Look around and read, read, read on here about setting up tanks. You'll get alot smarter in a few days

OK, the tank inhabitants. That tank is too small to house goldfish, ever. Your fish will get at least 6" long. The pleco will grow to 18" long. I am assuming they sold you a common pleco, but it doesn't matter, that tank is too small. Honestly, the neons and their food should go back too. They really need to be kept in groups of 6 or more and the tank is just too small for them to school.

There are really not many fish suited to a tank that small. The ADFs are a good choice. Buy a pair of long tongs at the pet store and frozen bloodworms to feed them. The worms come in little cubes you thaw out. Feed the three one cube every other day or so. Plop some worms right in their faces. Figure out how much to feed then so there isn't alot left over. It yuks up the water.

Want a fish? Get one betta. Buy some betta pellets and don't feed it when you are feeding the frogs. It will eat the bloodworms too. Well, most bettas like them anyway. If your doesn't, you can feed him/her that day.

Do you have a gravel vacuum? Right now, you have such a hodge podge of eaters in there you have to be overfeeding some and underfeeding others. What are you feeding them and how often?

Hang in there, we'll get you through this

 

[beckyd]

You can take out the goldfish and keep them in a clean bucket. Do you have and air pump? Can you get to a Walmart?

 

[OrangeCones]

I don't live in a place where I can just go back to the store. Is there any way I can keep them in that tank together? Like more frequent water changes, etc.

No. It is like you and 8 of your best friends sharing a phone booth. They are literally swimming in their own waste with no where to go. If you did hourly water changes, I don't think it could work.

Can any of them be taken out and put in an unheated, unfiltered tank?

The goldfish could live with no heat most likely, but need a filter.

The guy at the pet store was obviously stupid, but he said the pleco would only grow to be an inch or so long.... is there a type of them that this is true for?

An inch long pleco? No. The dwarf species can stay 3 or 4 inches long.

I'm sorry to say that you were badly misinformed, not a good way to start the hobby. That store should be ashamed.

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

You can take out the goldfish and keep them in a clean bucket. Do you have and air pump? Can you get to a Walmart?

No, I don't have an air pump and there's no Walmart here either... I do have a Canadian Tire and according to their website they sell air pumps, well, if this this is what I want and the store has it that is. I can't check today as they're closed for New Year's Day.

 

[Newman]

a tire air pump is not the same thing...
sorry that you have been introduced into the hobby in such a rough way :0
You know you should've researched cycling before you bought any living things right? I suggest you research it now... as for the fish, if you cant re-home them and you INSIST that they stay in that small tank, i am sorry to say but they will all perish :[

Also another bit of info that I've come across on another forum:
If you do water changes too frequently, your fish can die from that...very hard to believe and many people on here might disagree, but its called hyper-saturation something disease... Multiple water changes a day, for every day a week will cause the fish to die.

Basically you cant just keep the fish in there, and just expect to do enough water changes for them :[

 

[beckyd]

OK, then. I still say move the goldies to a bucket and give everybody 50%daily changes. I don't know about too many water changes causing harm. I read that they do 100% daily changes raising discus in Thailand because the water is so perfect for them that they need no conditioners. I just think clean water is your only hope for such overcrowding, but only temporarily. You need to get rid of those fish. You don't need a filter just to keep the goldfish alive long enough to get them elsewhere. The water changes will keep their oxygen high enough for short term. How long before you can get somewhere?

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

a tire air pump is not the same thing...
sorry that you have been introduced into the hobby in such a rough way :0
You know you should've researched cycling before you bought any living things right? I suggest you research it now... as for the fish, if you cant re-home them and you INSIST that they stay in that small tank, i am sorry to say but they will all perish :[

Also another bit of info that I've come across on another forum:
If you do water changes too frequently, your fish can die from that...very hard to believe and many people on here might disagree, but its called hyper-saturation something disease... Multiple water changes a day, for every day a week will cause the fish to die.

Basically you cant just keep the fish in there, and just expect to do enough water changes for them :[

Yes, I know a tire air pump isn't the same thing. They sell aquarium supplies at home hardware. This is a link to the page... Home Hardware Product Details
Is that what I want? If the link didn't work, go to homehardware.ca and type in # Item # 5991-616 or # Model # 10460

I did a big water change today, and I was planning on doing about a 20% every day after today. Is this a bad idea? Do I add cycle after every switch?

I got the tank for Christmas, added water and cycle and let it sit while I was away to see family in another bigger city. I didn't plan on buying fish right away, but I was curious while we were by an aquarium store, so I went in to look and to talk to the guy there about what I should be doing before I got fish. He told me that I'd already done everything I needed to do, so I believed him and bought fish. I do obviously regret not doing my own research, but I had no idea that I should not believe a person who works in an aquarium store!

I am trying to get rid of some of the fish, and for now I've moved the red cap oranda to another "tank" which is actually a 1.5 gallon vase that I used to have a betta fish in. I will try to get an air pump tomorrow if the above thing is what I'm supposed to get.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Newman]

yea the above link is the right pump. youll need air line as well ;/
There are tow problems with the product Nutrafin Cycle:
1. it probably doesnt even contain any of the bacteria that it claims to contain.
2. even if it did, the bacteria die within a day w/o any sourse of ammonia.

This is why cycling products like that need to be added to the tank at the same time as the fish. so the fish can provide an ammonia source and the bacteria wont die. as a substitute for fish, you coulda added pure ammonia to keep the bacteria well fed while you were gone. but while you were gone all of it died off. Now as the ammonia builds in your tank from fish waste, bacteria is starting to grow naturally. this is the "cloudy water" you describe. you REALLY need to research proper cycling of new fish tanks. it will save you a lot of questions about the health of your fish later on.

It takes a LOT of water changes for our fish to develop that hyper-saturation thingy, so i say do water changes like you plan until you can get rid of the fish.
Keep the frogs, theyre cool

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

OK, then. I still say move the goldies to a bucket and give everybody 50%daily changes. I don't know about too many water changes causing harm. I read that they do 100% daily changes raising discus in Thailand because the water is so perfect for them that they need no conditioners. I just think clean water is your only hope for such overcrowding, but only temporarily. You need to get rid of those fish. You don't need a filter just to keep the goldfish alive long enough to get them elsewhere. The water changes will keep their oxygen high enough for short term. How long before you can get somewhere?

Would it be better for both Goldies to be in the same bucket (my 1.5 gallon tall vase) or leave one in the tank? The reason I didn't move them both already is because the surface area is so small because the vase is very tall. I'll do the 50% daily switch, and I add cycle every time? Do I need a air pump to keep them alive for the short term or will they be okay? I don't remember if it was you that recommended that or someone else...
I won't be going back to the same city for a month or more, but I am going to a bigger city with Walmarts and pet stores in a week or so maybe so I could look into a bigger tank or other supplies as well as maybe pawning off some of the fish at a local store there. What do you recommend?

 

[Doomhed]

if I were you I would keep the 2 frogs and the 2 neons and get rid of the rest for a snail.

yes, you should ideally keep neons in a school of 5+ but you can get away with less than that.

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

Well, after doing a big water change yesterday and a 20-25% one today, the water has already cleared up and the smell has decreased... so hopefully I can keep these fishies alive until I can get a bigger tank or give some back/away.
I have big jugs that I fill with water and let it sit until the next water change, do I still need to use water conditioner? I have been using it, but I don't have an unlimited supply, so I'm worried that I will run out changing the water so frequently. Also, what happens if I run out of cycle to add every time I change the water? Is this something I should be looking for online so I have it for every water change every day?
I now have the red cap oranda in an unheated, unfiltered separate tank, that's a bit over a gallon. So far it seems happy hiding out among the stems of the bamboo I have in there and chilling under the bridge... am I being deceived, can he actually survive in there for a couple weeks? Do I need to get an air pump?

Thanks everyone for your help thus far... hoping to get a bigger tank and get it well cycled before I run out and get more fish next time!

 

[beckyd]

You're doing great. The goldfish should both be out, but if all you have for them is a 1g, leave them like they are. I still say 50% on the water changes for two weeks, 30% the 3rd, 20% the 4th. Goldfish have alot of ammonia in their urine and you have no way of knowing if its getting too high.
Yes, as long as you let the water sit 24hrs, you can get away without using conditioner. Use less cycle than recommended every other day until you're out.

The goldfish is fine by himself, unheated. They are cold water fish and can actually winter outside with ice. Inside your house, it will be fine. Now that you know you can get an air pump, I would hold off and see how it does. 50% water changes will keep the water oxygenated alright, I think. If it starts gulping at the surface, get a pump pronto. If you are less concerned about spending a little, get it and some tubing. You can make a little sponge filter very cheaply and that would be really good.

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

You're doing great. The goldfish should both be out, but if all you have for them is a 1g, leave them like they are. I still say 50% on the water changes for two weeks, 30% the 3rd, 20% the 4th. Goldfish have alot of ammonia in their urine and you have no way of knowing if its getting too high.
Yes, as long as you let the water sit 24hrs, you can get away without using conditioner. Use less cycle than recommended every other day until you're out.

The goldfish is fine by himself, unheated. They are cold water fish and can actually winter outside with ice. Inside your house, it will be fine. Now that you know you can get an air pump, I would hold off and see how it does. 50% water changes will keep the water oxygenated alright, I think. If it starts gulping at the surface, get a pump pronto. If you are less concerned about spending a little, get it and some tubing. You can make a little sponge filter very cheaply and that would be really good.

Okay, thank you so much for your advice! I will up the water changes to closer to 50% for the next couple weeks and then decrease slowly after that.
I have a couple people getting back to me that might have a one gallon fish bowl, the hexogonal ones, so if I can get one, should I gravel it and put the black moor in it? Or is that too small and more harmful than being with the frogs and tetras? It's a goldfish too so no heat or filter should be okay for a while with frequent water changes, right?

 

[beckyd]

Yes, move the black moor. It is small for him, but clears more water for the fish and frogs in the 4. Yes, he'll be fine with frequent changes and no heater. Oh and the reduction in water change amounts really doesn't apply to the goldfish's temporary homes. The reduction is because your cycle should be taking over in the 4g, and you should be safely able to move to regular weekly changes. These are indeed temporary for the goldfish as they cannot stay in 1 g permanently. You cannot successfully cycle a 1g for a goldfish. Actually, you cannot cycle anything with no filter. So, no need to gravel either one. You're goal with them is to keep them alive long enough to return , rehome, or buy a 29g for them. If they gulp air, get a pump with two output holes and use for both, or one pump with an airline splitter. Whichever you can get your hands on. However, if you get near a Walmart, call them in advance and ask if they''ll take your goldfish. How big are the goldfish? Measure them without their fins.

 

[Tomato Sandwich]

Update

So everybody is still alive and doing well- minus one neon tetra that I accidentally poured down the drain! Yes, I know I'm horrible, but the one time I didn't use the tubing filtery cleaning thing while changing water he got scooped up and I didn't notice until I'd already dumped the water down the drain and I couldn't catch him in time.

The pleco has been loaned out to an acquaintance, and if I get a bigger tank that is okay for him I may reclaim him at some point. So I have a goldfish (redcap oranda) in an unheated but aerated 5 gallon vase, 3 frogs, a black moor and a neon tetra in a 4 gallon, and I just got a new 10 gallon tank.

My question is- what should I put in the 10 gallon?

I know the 10 gallon is still not big enough to fix all of my problems, but I found it at the local second hand store for $5, so I thought it would help me out anyway.

After you've answered that question- how big of a tank do I still need and how should I re-distribute when I get it?

Thanks!

 

[dreamguardian1]

hmmm not sure if this one is even still being monitored byt the kid, part of this thread i was lughing another part iw as cussing out the fish store that sold him the poor fishes then i wanted to have a make believe burial at sea for the tetra lol.

Anyway, if you have set up the 10 gallon already make sure its cycled first before adding the fish and ready to go. However, with what you have left as long as they are not breeding you should be able to succesfully transplant all of your remaining fish into that 10 gallon tank. HOWEVEVER, make sure you have adequate filtration because with that amount of fish just a little air pump isnt going to cut it. You are going to need a proper filter, aerator, the gravel naturally, i advise on live plants but since your beginning stick with your fake one temporarily till you learn upkeep and management of your fish. And make sure to test the water with the test strips before adding the fishies.