Who is attacking who?

[tim3d]

Hi,
I recently brought some fish into my system, and soon after i noticed a few fish with damaged tail-fins, and side fins. Now i cant figure out which one it is causing the damage, but i have a sneaky suspicion i know who. Its one of 3 fish. Here's a list of what i have, and what i think is causing the problem. I'm kinda disappointed cause my angels are taking the most damage, and they were starting to mature nicely, and i just bought a really nice one with great striping. who is now the most damaged, and under observation in the isolation box)
(The damaged fish by the way are primarily my angels, and my male guppy)

Also it may be worth noting that my guppy seems to have some attitude and for whatever reason was nipping at the females, and dwarf gourami, and neons... to my knowledge aren't guppy fairly docile?

old residents

3 angels
1 elephant nose
1 male guppy
3 female guppies
1 farowella
2 dwarf gourami
6 algae eater
9 neons
1 wood shrimp
1 Opaline Gourami

new additions

1 black ghost knife fish (not suspected cause hes always hiding and chilling out shows no signs of aggression)
1 green scat ( possible suspect: physically looks aggressive but generally doesn't seem to bother others.)
1 figure eight puffer (possible suspect: aqadvisor states that it is too aggressive for what i have. I have yet to actually see it attack anyone, but i suspect it may be happening when im not around)
1 Glass catfish : (not a suspect)
1 Gold Sail-fin Molly (was a suspect but now im not sure as the aqadvisor doesn't state any problems of aggression)

Currently in isolation boxes are:

angelfish (young one recovering from attack)
Puffer (under observation due to possible aggressiveness)
male guppy ( recovering from tail munching)
Opaline Gourami (doesn't get along with dwarf gourami, undecided if i will return or not)

Any help would be great so that i know how to proceed.
I have a second tank but im restarting it because it was being used as a hospital tank for treatment with ich. But when it is ready i plan on stocking it.

Thanks in advance

 

[lauraf]

Hey Tim, as per my other messages, you do need to address the compatibility issue. I'm sure that lots of people on this site are gonna jump in with their concerns about what you've just listed above, but understand we're looking out for your fish's health, and thus the enjoyment you receive as a fish-keeper.
You've got some big decisions to make in terms of fish that need to be returned, unfortunately. *thumbsdow

 

[lauraf]

Hey Tim, as per my other messages, you do need to address the compatibility issue. I'm sure that lots of people on this site are gonna jump in with their concerns about what you've just listed above, but understand we're looking out for your fish's health, and thus the enjoyment you receive as a fish-keeper.
You've got some big decisions to make in terms of fish that need to be returned, unfortunately .

 

[OrangeCones]

Possible suspects of nipped fins:

angels
elephant nose
dwarf gourami
algae eater (depending on what this fish actually is, especially if CAE)
Opaline Gourami
black ghost knife fish
green scat
figure eight puffer
Gold Sail-fin Molly

You have several incomplete shoals of fish.

You have two electrical fish in one tank, either of which can stun other fish or each other and if they do not directly attack the stunned fish, others will sense this and try to take out the weakened fish. If water conditions are poor, they produce more electricity.

You have two brackish species in freshwater, which will cause stress.

Fish will pick at other fish if they are stressed or injured.

Sounds like you need a BUNCH of BIGGER tanks if you want to keep all of these fish! Maybe your buddy can get you a good deal?

 

[tim3d]

Well, I know it's not the elephant nose since he's been there since the begining and there haven't been problems before.

The dwarf gouramies as well have been here for awhile no problems.

The algae eaters same

the Angels same

and the opaline is segregated from the others. I'm most likely
returning him to store at some point this week tho.

It's really only since the new batch if the Molly,puffer, knife, scat,catfish, female guppies that I've been having the problem.

As for the rest what would you suggest?

In terms of other tanks I have my 20 that I'm starting over. And I have a 15 in the garage that needs equipment to start up. Also I have a 25 in the garage also in need of equipment.

As for deals, I spoke with one of the guys today, and he said
he could get me a 77 gal ecosystem package (tank, stand, upgraded filter, and other starting equipement) for 799.99 tx included. I'd have to check exactly what the filter type is, and what the furniture looks like. But I want to get
a rounded corner tank. I find the look really nice. The reg price is 1300$
so they're giving 500$ off. And I can get my fish and plants and ridiculously low prices. But I need to sort out some financial stuff first.

So what do you suggest? (with the knowledge that certain specimens aren't the problem, and that I have other tanks)

Appreciate the help guys.

Is that a re

 

[tim3d]

By the way which were you refering to about
the incomplete schoals?

(sorry for the double post)

 

[bassbonediva]

Just because you haven't had problems with those particular fish before doesn't mean they aren't causing problems now. ESPECIALLY with as crowded as your tank is! When I saw your stocking list, I literally flinched. After putting it through AqAdvisor, I'm starting to wonder how any of your fish have room to swim. You do realize that you're currently 240% stocked and only at 20% filtration capacity...and that's not counting the six "algae eaters" (because that is so non-specific it's impossible to input into the stocking calculator) and the "green scat" (whatever the heck that is)? Even upgrading to a 77gal, you'll be at 137% stocked if you keep all those fish. My suggestion would be to take a good long look at all those red WARNINGS on AqAdvisor and try to match like fish together and get rid of the ones that just don't fit at all and/or aren't compatible with anything else you have. Also, you need to fill out some of the schooling fish you have, like the glass catfish. They do much better in groups of five or more, but I wouldn't recommend filling out the school until you have more room to do so. As far as I can see, that's the only imcomplete school you have.

EDIT: I just took a look at the pics you have up in the photography section...the algae eaters you have are Chinese algae eaters. Hate to break it to you, but they get to be rather large (6" or more...I know a guy who has one that is about 8" and fat as heck), they stop eating algae after they reach a certain size/age, and they become aggressive and will actually latch onto and suck the slime coat off your other fish.

 

[misterking]

I agree with everyone else. This tank is a trainwreck waiting to happen and simply will not work. Far too many incompatible fish in far too small a tank. For example:

-3 angelfish - If two pair off, the other will be bullied to death. Literally.
-1 elephant nose - OC has already covered this.
-2 dwarf gouramis - Both males? You shouldn't keep two gouramis together ideally, too aggressive.
-1 opaline gourami - See above.
-6 aglae eaters - bassbonediva covered this. I wouldn't even keep one.
-9 Neons - Will be eaten by your black ghost knife as it grows.
-1 green scat - Brackish fish that need an increased amount of salt in the water as they grow. Completely wrong for saltwater.
-1 puffer (figure 8) - As with most puffers, should be kept in a species only tank. Too aggressive and a strong candidate for the aggression issues.
-1 black ghost knife - Grow huge. We're talking half a metre.
-1 glass catfish - Should be in shoals.

So what would I do?

GET RID OF - Black ghost knife, puffer, algae eaters, scat, 2 of the gouramis (unless you have a male and female dwarf), one of the angelfish (alternatively buy another), elephant nose.

THEN - Increase shoal of glass catfish to between 4 and 6, replace algae eaters with ONE bristlenose or rubberlip or bulldog pleco (or a few otocinclus), and leave it at that. You simply don't have the space to keep so many fish.

You should seriously consider researching your fish before you buy them, and not asking people at your LFS who often have no idea what they're talking about. Sorry to be harsh but it's either do the above or have a lot of fish die.

 

[bassbonediva]

I agree with everyone else. This tank is a trainwreck waiting to happen and simply will not work. Far too many incompatible fish in far too small a tank. For example:

-3 angelfish - If two pair off, the other will be bullied to death. Literally.
-1 elephant nose - OC has already covered this.
-2 dwarf gouramis - Both males? You shouldn't keep two gouramis together ideally, too aggressive.
-1 opaline gourami - See above.
-6 aglae eaters - bassbonediva covered this. I wouldn't even keep one.
-9 Neons - Will be eaten by your black ghost knife as it grows.
-1 green scat - Brackish fish that need an increased amount of salt in the water as they grow. Completely wrong for saltwater.
-1 puffer (figure 8) - As with most puffers, should be kept in a species only tank. Too aggressive and a strong candidate for the aggression issues.
-1 black ghost knife - Grow huge. We're talking half a metre.
-1 glass catfish - Should be in shoals.

So what would I do?

GET RID OF - Black ghost knife, puffer, algae eaters, scat, 2 of the gouramis (unless you have a male and female dwarf), one of the angelfish (alternatively buy another), elephant nose.

THEN - Increase shoal of glass catfish to between 4 and 6, replace algae eaters with ONE bristlenose or rubberlip or bulldog pleco (or a few otocinclus), and leave it at that. You simply don't have the space to keep so many fish.

You should seriously consider researching your fish before you buy them, and not asking people at your LFS who often have no idea what they're talking about. Sorry to be harsh but it's either do the above or have a lot of fish die.

+1 on everything but the otos. Mainly because otos are so incredibly sensitive to water parameters and they need a well-established tank or they'll die. Heck, even with a well-established tank they sometimes die anyway. I honestly don't think that the OP is ready to take on the challenge of otos yet (no offense to the OP, just keeping it real).

 

[tim3d]

i was already looking at returning the puffer, the only issue is i have to find another buyer, cause i bought it from a distributor at a ridiculously low price, so i would like to perhaps make a profit off it. (any idea what they generally retail for?)

as for the angelfish i'm down to two anyways. I return one as it was being segregated from the others, and didn't seem happy.

The elephant nose ive been considering returning for awhile, only because i find he seems to bully others when it comes to food. not aggressively but just pushy. And hes grown a bit since ive had it, so i may be able to also sell at profit.

The algae eaters where only in there to help when i had a serious algae problem in the early stages of my tank. And so ill probably get rid of some soon to make room for other specimens.

The black ghost id like to keep. And by the time he starts to get too big, ill have my new tank.

the dwarf haven't had any problems, they get along and show no signs of stress or aggression.

Ive been meaning to buy a pleco, but ive been told constantly by the LFS that it was too soon... which i found odd since i thought they were some of the toughest fish... :s

If keeping the glass cat fish means getting more then im not sure ill keep it, honestly id rather keep that kind of space for some more .... prettier fish.

Also, id like to note, that they don't seem that crowded in the tank.. every fish gets around fine, and really don't seem crowded.... but i guess that's just my opinion.

All that being said, i generally try to look for more colorful, energetic, pretty, elegant, and bizarre fish. So which would you suggest? I also like staying away from cliche.

Also, for the puffer, if i decide to keep it, can you explain how to set up a species only tank.

Thanks for the advice everyone, and i do take it all into consideration. Im kind of a bit of an impulse buyer, so when i see a fish i like, i ask if it will work and get it... but ill start researching things first.

 

[bassbonediva]

The reason they don't seem crowded now is 'cuz they're all probably very young, so they haven't reached their full adult size yet. A full-grown angelfish is generally 6" long and about 10" tall. Also, I re-read about the Chinese algae eaters because of the one I saw in my friend's tank that was ginormous and I was mistaken...they actually get to be 11-12" each! When stocking a tank ALWAYS look at the adult size for the fish, NEVER what size they are now.

 

[lauraf]

Oh, Tim.
I'm not sure how to respond, but I'm gonna try.
First: You should not expect to make a profit from rehoming fish. It doesn't matter that you got a great deal when you bought them, or that they are larger now. These aren't lake-front properties or proven prize-winning racehorses. This is not a money-making venture, and should never be seen as such, particularly by an amateur fishkeeper.
Second: Please understand that fish are not just pretty or non-pretty little decorations. They are animals and are dependent on our care for their lives. And just because you want to keep a fish because you find it interesting doesn't mean the fish is or will continue to be okay.
Third: If you want to stay away from 'cliche', and prefer the 'bizarre', a smallish (as in under 100g) home aquarium isn't going to do it. You should realize that the reason most smallish tanks kept by an amateur at home have the same kinds of fish is because those are the fish that will actually survive in that kind of environment.
You are dealing with living animals. Please recognize that your impulsiveness can actually cause suffering.

 

[tim3d]

alright, well ive decided to to a stocking overhaul. im going today to return:

6 algae eater to replace with pleco
1 dwarf gourami to replace with female
1 opaline gourami
1 elephant nose
1 Figure eight puffer
1 green scat
1 glass catfish (i would rather get other fish than to get 4 more)

im also going to be restarting my 20 gal in the next day or so, and so that will hopefully be ready in a week. Ive been told i can return my artificial plants, to replace with live ones.

Now, im calling on you guys (even tho i know it was mentioned what i should look at getting) to help me decide what to get to replace things. So the updated community in my 32 gal will be:

-8-9 neons (i cant count exactly how many bought 10 and one disapeared, now possibly another)
-4 guppies: 3 fem, 1 male
-2 angels (however i suspect i might lose them, as their fins don't seem to be recovering and now they appear to just be going downhill and the one appears to be getting some kind of fungus L( any advice on treatment is welcome.)
-1 gold sail fin molly
-black ghost knife (ill be upgrading tanks before he gets to big or dangerous to others.)

So what would you suggest for this tank? i still would like some color in the tank, or at least some fish with a somewhat active lifestyle.

Also if you can suggest some fish for the 20 when it comes time. I want to do things right this time. This has been a learning experience for me, and so, im finding things out as i go along. In terms of tank care, i had no idea how to do anything before, but now i can manage my own stuff, i just still haven't got the nack of picking the right fish i guess. And considering all i had to go on was LFS advice b4 i joined this site, its hard to know.

I do realize they are living animals, and believe i do care about they're well being, in fact i generally feel bad watching any fish die or suffer. even at the pet shop, if the guy has to remove a dead fish or one nearly dead, i feel slightly sad about the fact. I don't enjoy knowing that my fish aren't happy, and feel horrible if one of my own dies. For two reasons, one cause like any pet you get emotionally attached (even if you cant pet it) and second its a lost investment, which in itself is an emotional strain.

I don't want you guys to think i am in anyway not caring about things, i'm just simply a misinformed client, and therefore the fish are the ones paying the true price, aside from monetary. So whatever you can suggest that will live happily in my little ecosystem is great, cause as much as like the rare and bizarre i also like the living, and healthy.

Also just in reply to the "money-making venture" comment, i am aware of that, and it not as tho i aim at trying to make profit from them, it was just a comment based on knowledge that i got them at a price lower than the average lfs would pay, so i figured even selling back to a store would stand to make an extra buck or two in credit. It was just as a general statement, not a suggestion of lifestyle.

Also, in response to Bassbonediva, I was aware that there is one or two species of algae eaters that grow quite large, but i was just unsure as to which i have. Again, they were one of the early purchases, where i assumed that the lfs that i bought the system from in the place, would be aware of sizing issues. They were also only brought it as emergency cleaning crew, i didn't plan on keeping them for a long period of time. It has just taken me awhile to get around to returning them.


Anyways, all this to say, i appreciate everything you guys say, and i do take it to heart, and it will play strongly on future ventures, and purchases. I just wants whats best for the fishies.

 

[misterking]

Don't put anything else in there until you've taken the black ghost knife out. You're pretty much as close to an acceptable stocking limit as you can be so leave it for now, don't load it with any more.

What size are you upgrading to, and with what do you want to stock it?

 

[misterking]

As a quick end note, I don't think you're giving glass catfish a fair go here. They make possibly the most beautiful, mesmerizing and unusual shoals you can see in an aquarium. I'd strongly consider getting a group in the future, possibly for your 20 gallon.

Have you had any ideas on what you want to see in your 20 gallon?

 

[OrangeCones]

Don't put anything else in there until you've taken the black ghost knife out.

+1 on this. Given time and clean water, this fish will be the only one left once he's eaten the rest. At 6", they can eat 2" feeder goldfish, so your other fish ARE in danger. Even if they are not eaten, the other fish will be constantly stressed, hoping they will not fall victim to the nocternal hunter while they try to rest at night.

Just my 2cents.

 

[lauraf]

Hi Tim:
First let me say that I am really happy to hear that you are listening to the advice we are giving here, instead of walking away because we aren't giving you the feedback you maybe wanted to hear!
Also, I appreciate that you weren't looking at this as a huge money-making venture, and yes, it costs money so why not try to make some money back, but quite frankly the lfs that gets your fish is actually now the one who is a) paying to house the fish until it sells; and b) taking the chance that it might perish before it can be sold. Plus, and someone here correct me if I am wrong, but most lfs don't make their profit on the fish themselves - it's the markup on the products that sustains these operations, which is another reason why they are motivated to sell you 'stuff' that you don't necessarily need.
And it's great to hear you reaffirm your commitment to healthy fish within the confines of the tanks you have.
Please do return the fish you listed. And unfortunately, I think misterking and OC are right about needing to return the ghost knife. They are so gorgeous and interesting, but you aren't doing yourself or your tank any favours by keeping it. Maybe think of this species as a 'dream fish' that you will once again be able to keep if you get a 75g or something!
And finally, I'd look into some kind of a medicated treatment for your angels, but I also think that once you return the fish you listed, and make sure your water is pristine, that will help them immensely too.
When can you return the fish? The sooner the better, for everyone's health.
(PS - glass cats are awesome - don't dismiss 'non-colourful' fish as being really engaging!)
Cheers,
Laura

 

[tim3d]

@misterking: I'm looking at upgrading to a 70 something gallon tank. I looked into pricing and can get the tank, standard starter equipment, upgraded filter, cabinet for 799.99 tax included. And as for the catfish, i might try them in the 20, i didn't realize they stay relatively small. I was under the impression that seeing as they are called catfish that they grew really big... but then i found out they only get about 4 inches.... so i might really consider it when the time comes.

@OrangeCones: the way i have my tank set up, for the time being i don't see it being a problem, everyone has sufficient hiding places, and the Knife keeps to himself. Although i definitely plan on getting him in a larger tank within the next couple months.

@everyone: it would appear that i have neon fry swimming around... umm... what should do? let it be and let nature takes its course (natural selection)? Or do i catch them and place them in a breeder box? And what about food, what would they be feeding on? should i be providing or will they find there own food in the system?

 

[tim3d]

@Lauraf: Actually i went and returned them today. Once i found out the problem, i didnt want to see anymore casualties. im hoping that my angels will recover, Ive been using the medicated dose of aquaplus (which claims to help fins and scales, also, i started treating today with Pimafix. I really would hate to lose my angels.

As for the profitering of fish, you are right that mark up is usually low, however the lfs around here all have similar pricing, and as an example of their profit margins, i got my fish at cost price, and discounted (which is the price that the lfs i deal with pays. Now, the puffer, sailfin molly, black ghost knife, glass catfish, green scat and 3 female guppies as an example, i paid like 30 bucks. Now the knife fish would sell for around 15-20 alone.... same for the green scat, and the puffer. so suffice to say that i still got a deal. for the 15-20 dollar fishes there was an average of 10 -15 $ mark up on each. (if sold retail in the store to public. Bottom line is, it helps to have connections.)

 

[misterking]

Are you sure they're neon tetras? What sex is your molly? Female livebearers (which include mollies, guppies, platies, swordtails etc) actually have the ability to store sperm to fertilise eggs at a later date. I'm not doubting you neons are breeding but, if your molly is female, it would certainly be much more likely to be her. Personally I'd leave it to natural selection if this is the case or you'll very quickly be overrun.