A few more questions

[NickM]

Hey yall,

When you first start to fishless cycle, how long does it take before the ammonia starts to drop and nitrIte states to spike?  I got my new tank installed Saturday, and I added ammonia then, and every time I have tested since then it has been the say (very high) and I forgot to get a nitrite test kit at the store the other day, so I was just wondering.  

Also, my pH is high (best I can tell, the color is waaaayyyyyyy red...redder than the brightest red I see on the bottle to compare it to)  so I assume I need pH Minus??  

 

[ronrca]

Depends! If you have seeded your tank with old filter media or gravel, then it should take a couple of days if that. If you have not added any media/gravel, then it could up to a week and a half, usually only a week I believe. Nitrites on the other hand will take up to 3-4x longer because of the reproducation rate of the two bacterias.

About the ph, that depends on the type of fish you want. What is your hardness , gk and kh? Do you plan to having any real plants? By injecting C02, your ph will come down somewhat. You can also 'age' your water and adjust your ph before putting it in your tank. I would not recommend adding any chemicals to adjust ph or anything to your tank.

 

[NickM]

My hardness was in the moderate range....50 to 120, or so says my test kit bottle.  

I don't have anyone who owns fish to seed any bacteria, I'm on my own.  

Why shouldn't I add anything to lower my pH?  If I want fish in my tank, instead of a picturesque box of water, wouldn't I have to?

I already have some real plants, heck if I know what they are...one is dieing, and one is doing just great.  The one that is doing great is some grass looking stuff, and the stuff that is dieing looks like a weed.  The leaves are about 2 inches long, and about a half inch wide.  

 

[ronrca]

Adjusting ph in your tank can lead to ph swinging. By that I mean ph going up and going down. That is stressful not only to fish but also plants. Therefore, when adding ph up/down, you are adding this sort of stress. I take it that you would like to have a ph of around 7.0 and to achieve that, you will have to drasticly decrease your ph. While you do not have fish, it is ok however a drastic change might harm your plants. By adjusting your ph before you add the water to the tank is a much better route as you do not adjust it in the tank. Of course, at the moment, you will have to adjust it and thats fine. However, in the future, when you do have fish, it is a pain in the a$$.

By using C02, which you need for your plants anyways, you can bring down your ph without the need of adding chemicals. I like this method much better since I dont like adding any sort of chemicals into my tank (except Seachem prime and fertilizer).

 

[NickM]

How do I add co2 to my tank?

 

[ronrca]

There are a couple of ways to go. The most common being:
- diy yeast/sugar
- canister

Of course, it comes down to again how much you can afford. At first, I used the yeast/sugar method and it works fine for smaller tanks but harder to control ph. The canister, which I now have, costs more but the rate of C02 is varible and easier to keep ph steady.

Check out some links:
www.thekrib.com - has lots of info on C02 injection

http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

This link is for testing amount of C02 in your tank using ph and kh!
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

About the canister, I went to a welding supply store and bought a C02 canister. You can buy the regulator and valves etc there also if you know what you need or buy the regulator online at http://www.marine-monsters.com/bodymainm3.html They also have some article about it.  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[NickM]

Ok, that settles it.   I'm buying fake plants.    :-/

 

[ronrca]

Its your choice and to be really honest with you, I also had fake plants when I started my 90G as you can see if you look at my pics link (yahoo). They were great! for the first couple of weeks. Then algae started growing everywhere and the fake plants looked like crap. About 6 months ago, I jumped into plants head first and never regretted it. My tank right now does not have much algae growth at all because the plants are competing and winning the algae. Imo, go for real plants. Not as hard as you think. However, if you do want to lower your ph, either C02 injection or pre-treating your water is the way to go. I also have tried ph down without success. I actually found it to be useless because one day I would manage to bring my ph down, then it jumps back the next. Neverending story. But thats just my experience. Good Luck!  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[NickM]

If I sound frustrated, I am.  I jumped into this because of the stress relieving quality, but this is actually causing me more stress than what I was hoping to relieve.  Mainly because right now I have 150 dollars in tank + accessories, and won't be able to put fish in it for what I am assuming to be 3 weeks waiting for this to age, and that to age, and this to come down and that to go up.......it doesn't seem like fun.  Especially if I can't have the types of fish i want because one is tolerant to this pH, this hardness, and everythign else....but another isn't.  I can't afford to buy real plants and fish just to have them die.  I have no expendable income.  So far this has been a  *thumbsdown2* experience.   :'(

 

[catfishmike]

the worst part of this hobby is that no one will tell you a d@mn thing when you start.later you go back to the store and thats when the store clerks begin to laugh uncontrolably,when you ask for help after it's too late.this happens especialy if you bought your first tank at wal-mart cause those people don't know jack.

 

[NickM]

I mean, this is kind of depressing.  It's like I said a few post back....all I have now is a 150 dollar picturesque box of water.  

Something else, catfishmike...thats why I am here.  I was hoping that I could get help here.  I haven't had a problem of getting help.....it's just that everything I do, I find a way to make it worse so I got to spend more money to fix the problem that I should have fixed the first time.  It's a perpetual pandoras box of problems for me.  

 

[ronrca]

LOL Catfish! But how true.

Poor Nick! I kinda know how you feel. Yes, it is a lot of work and a lot of knowledge/research required but I have not meant someone that has been successful in keeping fish and plants that were dissappointed. Actually, far from it. I find that it is a great way to 'relieve stress'. But then again, thats what hobbies are about, doing something else to take your mind off life and work. I have found this hobby to do just that however everyone is different.

But, you dont have to really get involved as some of us do. A lot of people have simple tanks with little maintanence. That will depend on the setup you get like getting fish that are easy to keep, ones that will be happy in the conditions available to you. In your case Nick, you may want to look at african cichlids. They require harder water and higher ph. They dont even require plants at all as their habitat consists of rocks.

Check out this site Nick:
http://cichlidinspiration.net3services.com/ for some tanks.

Check out this site also for fish and tanks
http://www.vatoelvis.com/Home.html

I hope that I can help.

 

[NickM]

I want a freaking menagerie of fish, not just one.  lol  I want people who come to my house to look at my tank in awe.......and not in awe of the n00bness of it, but in awe of the sheer awesomeness it radiates.  


Yea, I can dream.   :  :



I think the problem with my plant that is dieing is because it is close to the heater.  I'll move it and see if that helps...because my other ones are doing fine.  If you want, I can take pics of it and post them so you might be able to identify my dieing plant.  

 

[ronrca]

Yea! That would be cool!

About your tank, what kind of lighting and wattage do you have? What about fertilization and gravel substate? Just some more info would be good.

Check out
http://faq.thekrib.com/plant.html

Very good info about plants.

 

[NickM]

I got one of those n00b Top Fin kits from Pet Smart.  It's a 20 gal tank...I don't know how many watts the light is.....I can't find it written any where on the bulb, or the housing.  No fertilizer, didn't know I needed it.  The gravel is Top Fin aquarium gravel...kind of a tanish light gray color.


Here is the link to my pics: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/nickmoncrief/lst?.dir=/

 

[ronrca]

Cool! Nice setup! You have the same mountain as I have in my 2G betta tank.  *thumbsupsmiley*

Make sure you read thekrib.com articles about plants. Thats how I started at first too. Another thing to remember is that, sure, initially it may seem all overwhelming and frustrating however it pays off. Once everything has been setup and functioning, you will know that it was worth it. I remember when I started with my 30G, and I researched so much. I felt overwhelmed by all the info however when I look back, I have to say that it was definitly worth it. At the moment, I have 4 tanks, 90, 30, 20 and a 10. I can really say that it is hard to maintain. It takes me around 1-2 hours saturday morning to take care of my tanks. Thats it! When I started with my 90G, I did get frustrated by the same fact you pointed out, no fish spent enough money already. Now Im so glad that I didnt give up. Just a word of encouragement. Persistance and patience!

 

[catfishmike]

NickM don't feel to bad where i live in las vegas,fishkeeping isn't very advanceced unless you mail order.after spending $300 dollars and all i got to show for it is a 30gal tank,aquaclear150,penguin170,ugf,and a couple of crummy decorations.the lighting is junk,it came with a broke heater.i finaly found a lfs with nice stuff but i can't afford very much in there store.mail order and time is the only way to be sucsessful in this hobby.when i first started i was sooo backwards on so much that i'm lucky to still have my first fish.just go slow and plan each fish purchase with research.for instance you could find an undemanding tetra fish that may thrive in your water,go home see if you like the characteristics of that fish then if yes go buy some.next perhaps you want some bottom feeders,try a cory or a loach,see if that fish would be at home in your tank.then to take up some mid space try a live-bearer,just remeber to keep live bearer pop. in check.try to follow nature,my pleco detests upside-down catfish,so try fish from the  same region
find a setting you like and buy it all at once no matter the cost,thats the only way to get it right the first time.if not then you have to work around fish an fish don't seem to cooperate when you rearange the tank.thats my opinion.i'm getting ready to set-up an 84gal.s.american catfish tank.i don't want the troubles i had last time so i expect to spend approx.$600-750 on this tank.no more fooling around.

 

[NickM]

Well, today is 4 days since I set up my tank.  I put pure ammonia in the tank Sat when I set it up, and haven't added any more.  Today the test still shows that my ammonia is as high as the day I put it in.  I would have hoped it would have come down by now to at least show me there was some bacterial growth.  

I am already forming what kind of fish I want in my head.  I was hoping for some yoyo loaches, some guppies, some tetras, maybe a kissing gourami to add some size, and maybe some shrimp or snails. Past that I don't know.  

 

[skamps]

This is a link to a very informative article on tank cycling.  

http://www.aquamaniacs.net/cyclingsafely.html

Something else to remember is that Fish breath out CO2, so your plants will start doing better when it is time to add fish.
I personally don't do anything to make plants grow better (better lighting, fertilizer, adding CO2).   The plants still grow, just slower.

Hang in there...

 

[NickM]

Ok, here is some numbers for yall......

pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 6.0 - 7.0 (off the chart)
NitrItes:0
GH:50-100ppm
KH:100-200ppm

What do you guys think about those numbers???