A few more questions

[catfishmike]

ph is kinda high,is that local tap or just your tank?a ph of 8.2 is great for african cichlids,mollies,and a couple other fish.most prosper at lower ph but if the fish at your lfs are ok and they use tap buy some of those.some of the fish you chose may not thrive at that ph.but once again if the fish are ok at lfs it should be ok.as far as ammonia wait a day or two more it should come down soon.as far as things not going your way,yes it's the pitts,if you don't like the fish you can buy get some anyways.if your really intrested in doing this you will love any fish regardless of the astetics of it.once i said i should by a fish with color(unlike the 30 catfish i have)so i bought a red swordtail,at first it bugged me to no end.then one day i found it playing with my oldest cory.both fish were having a grand time.now i've come to like swordtails.right after that the swordtail jumped out of the tank,i was mad for days.

 

[Medic6666]

When I got my tank.... I did the following.

1. washed everything first
2. added gravel and castle thingy
3. added filter and heater
4. put water in buckets and treated with AquaClear. Left for 4 hours before putting in tank.
5. I then waited another 4 hours before turning on the heater and filter.
6. I set the light to a normal 8 hour daytime setting (remote plug adapter).
7. Added a few flakes of tetramin flake everymorning for 2weeks.
8. Added a couple of cheap plants and continued adding flake for another 2 weeks.
9. Got 5 zebra dinos let the bag float for 20mins and then added them to the tank.

The zebras are still alive 6months on and I have now added 2 corys and a couple of neons. They are all perfectly happy and my plants are doing fine. I keep cutting them and they grow back quicker everytime.

Patience gives you the best reward  *twirlysmiley*
Give it time and you will need to do less later on. I have only added AquaClear for tap water treatment and feed for the plants. You can get little capsules that help bacterial growth on new tanks. I add one of these every 3 water changes (I only have a small tank and 20% water change is a lot).


Just my pennies worth

Medic6666

 

[ronrca]

Nick,
If you dont want to worry about water chemistry too much, go for the african cichlids. There are some beautiful fish around. At least you dont have to worry about ph or hardness.

 

[NickM]

I did my tests for this morning.  Ammonia and NitrIte was the same.............pH came down ( added some pH down.....sorry Ron)    My ph was at 7.8   I won't add any pH down today and check t tonight and see what it did.  

I bought a beautiful betta last night.  Freshly stocked because the water was clear.  It is bright blue, with red tips on the fin under it.  

Oh yea....I checked on my housing of my light again, and it said 19watt.   THats kind of low isn't it????

 

[Matt Nace]

My PH is currently 8.2.

It has never been lower than 7.8 in the 13 years I have kept fish.

So all the talk about the PH is driving me insane *twirlysmiley*. Forget the Ph. I have kept more fish than I feel like typing. Almost 95% of them were non-cichlid species.

When do you worry about it?

-When it swings daily(chemistry is not correct)
-when it gets too low(ph could crash)

I can't comment on fish such as Discus having to have it. I never kept them. But has anyone spent $30, $40 and just put them in their community ?

I keep Angels in my 8.2 super rock hard waters....I'll better they look picture perfect in a few years.

Will they breed? They did at my LFS. I am also not out to breed them anyways, I just like to watch them and care for them.

NickM,
The problem with the fishless cycle is the wait. I already had 3 tanks up when I did my fishless, I also had it well seeded. It took 4 days MAX.

Sorry to annoy anyone, ...but I bet 90% of fishkeepers don't fishless cycle. Some have other ways, such as simply moving bacteria media or entire filters.

I usually move the entire filter, fully plant the tank, and never see a spike with the minimum fish load I add.The plants also help in it.
 So NickM, if it isn't seeded, it is going take a while. It could be a month or more. It could be two weeks. You won't know.
 
 If waiting bothers you...then empty the tank,buy a very few fish to start. I know I would not have waited on my first tank, even if these internet boards were around. I was too excited.

 

[ronrca]

I agree with Matt on almost everything except the ph part sort of. He did mention about the discus part and since I have discus, ph does play a role in keeping discus. Discus in a higher ph are not as colorful and vibrant as discus in neutral or just under neutral. I have experienced it and tried it myself. As for other fish, well, yea, ph is not really a concern unless you start trying to change the ph (especially adding chemicals to your tank).

However, there are other considerations to make when keeping fish in ph other than they are native to. This is not my opinion but from one of my reference books. It says that fish that are kept in ph that they are not native to, can suffer from conditions called alkalosis or acidosis. We will look at alkalosis since acidosis generally occurs below ph 5.5. Alkalosis generally occurs above ph8 to ph9 and really depends on the species of fish. Fish native to under ph 7 (acidophiles), can experience alkalosis at ph8. Both these conditions occur whether ph change is rapid and acute or slow and chronic. Rapidly changing ph will cause the fish to become highly excitable, make rapid swimming movements, gasp and tend to jump, death will follow fairly rapidly. In slow and continuous, the effects are more subtle, resulting in slow death with few obvious symptoms. In addition to the alkalosis conditions, the fish's gill and fin tissues are destroyed.

Just for information purposes. Im not saying that it cant be done but one has to research the fish before getting them. And like Matt says, most fish dont have a problem with ph but it depends on what end of the ph scale they are native too. Most fish are native to the neutral or close to ph therefore they will not be suseptible to acidosis or alkalosis.  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[NickM]

A MONTH?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?   :'(  :'(  :'( :'(

I don't know any one who has a tank to get any stones or filter media from... and from what I have read on this board ( I have read almost every thread) that I certainly don't want to ask Pet Smart for any of their media.  

I'm certainly not giving up.....I've spent too much money to stop now.  

Would any of you like to contribute to the "Nick needs established tank media fund??"   ;D

 

[ronrca]

Kinda sucks yea!   A month but hey, dont sweat it. At least your not spending your money on fish yet and collecting interest in the bank. This is a good time to research the fish you would like to get.  *thumbsupsmiley* Patience!  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[NickM]

What money in the bank??  Oh!!  You mean all $2.37 in my checking account.   :

 

[ronrca]

LOL!  :'(

Well! Ok, let me put it this way, it will give you time to save up to buy fish!  *twirlysmiley*

 

[skamps]

I'm going to agree with Matt on this point (not a popular opinion on this board):

" If waiting bothers you...then empty the tank,buy a very few fish to start. "

I didn't fishless cycle my first tank, but I was very careful to stock it with just a few fish and did 10% water changes weekly (while cleaning the gravel) right from the beginning.  I still have those fish today.

 

[Matt Nace]

Thanks for the comments on the discus ron, I have no expierence with them.

Acidosis and Akalosis are usually the extremes such as PH lower than 5.5 or higher than 9.0.Also it can be from dropping a fish from a certain PH to its extreme.

Low PH with soft water is a disaster waiting to happen. Low PH fluctuations are much more harmfull on the acid side than the alkaline side.

Both can cause skin problems and erode the gills, as well as cause death.

Acclimation is the key. I suppose some fish just wont tolerate some PH's, but those fish are less than those who can tolerate it. Discus are a good example of a fish that needs it's PH at a certain level and that is it. But when you shell out the $30 for them, you better research and find what they like and their biotope anyways.

 

[NickM]

Ok guys...I just got home.  You know you're a redneck when you injure yourself fighting over Hooters hot wings.  Don't ask, I'm not telling   :-X  ;D

Great responses.  I guess I have no choice but to wait it out.  I've read posts about bacteria starters sold at lfs's, and people saying they weren't any good.....has any one actually had a positive response when using one, or is it a big load of malarchy?  

 

[catfishmike]

everyone on the forum seems to believe in fishless cycling but  it's ok to keep a betta in a bowl.this pi$$es me off.a betta is a great fish to cycle with.i still think that the polution in a bowl far outweighs the polution in  a cycling tank.if you can force a betta to live in a dirty bowl,you can use a betta to cycle a tank.you just have to add a few fish at a time.at the size of your tank a few female bettas would cycle your tank nicely,just wait till all tha ammonia is gone or do a big water change.

 

[Matt Nace]

Hey catfishmike...don't put me in your stereotype

I fishless cycled once, and now I just switch or move a filter from a bigger fishload to one I need cycled with less. Add plants and boom..no spikes.

When I get my 300 gallon..am I fishless cycling...heck no.

3 fully functional filters , all the plants, all the gravel, flourite, rocks, wood and fish are going in it the day after I set it up.

Think I will get a spike?..no way. It is also almost 4 times the water..so dilution is also a factor.

 

[catfishmike]

hey i'm not naming names,thats mostly for a dissenting opinion,but betta bowls are a pet peev.i like to diss bowls when i can. i like bettas too much.using a pre exstiting filter is what i do too,fishless cycle is good if you have the time,but if you don't start a culture in a bio wheel filter or another wet dry filter.then transfer the filter.this is why i perfer over filtering and choice media.the more bio capacity of your filter the larger the colony,that way the bacteria multiply quckly when you add a load on the tank.if you have to cycle with fish,dilution is the key to reduce fish stress at this time.  

 

[ronrca]

Just to clarify Matt, the book I was paraquoting does mention that acidosis/alkalosis does not just happen just in the extremes or fast changes to ph, it can also happen with acidophiles (fish that are normally under 7.0) in alkaline conditions of ph8+ or vise versa. Therefore discus, which are acidophiles, when kept in ph8+, can experience alkalosis. Africian cichlids would be another example if kept in acid (under ph7) conditions.

Well, I know that you understand this and I do agree with you in that "some fish just wont tolerate some PH's, but those fish are less than those who can tolerate it."

To be honest, when I got my first tank, a 30G, I filled it with water and 3 days later got 6 neons. I had actually never heard of a cycle or ph etc. It was a couple of weeks after that I really started getting into the water parameters that I discovered my mistakes. Now I would like to help others in the same shoes. Once you have one tank cycled, as Matt mentions, cycling no longer is a problem.

Mike,
Betta in a bowl! Depends on how big the bowl is? You talking like 1/4 G? lol!

"the more bio capacity of your filter the larger the colony,that way the bacteria multiply quckly when you add a load on the tank.if you have to cycle with fish,dilution is the key to reduce fish stress at this time"

The bio capacity also depends on the amount of "food" (ammonia/nitrites) availible. Once your culture starts growing and multipling, it will stop when the 'food' is gone. Therefore, when adding a couple of fish to cycle, the culture will be very small. In fishless, you can grow as big a culture as you want, providing of course as you mentioned the bio capacity of your filter. However, bacteria will not multiply any quickly just because it has 10x the space availible. No food, no growth. With fish cycling, dilution will reduce the amount of food therefore the culture will not grow as big. Even though I do agree with you that one must reduce the stress on the fishes, I dont like the idea of reducing the food thus reducing the culture.

But you may already know this Mike but I thought I would 'clarify' just in case!  *thumbsupsmiley*

 

[NickM]

My problem is I don't have any body that I could get media from.  I don't have a tank, haven't had one for years...but I wanted one, so I got it.  I have a betta.  I had a betta.  I put him in my tank........he died within 30 minutes.  Don't know why.  So I got another one.  I put him in about a quart size octagon shape glass.  This one is happy where he is right now....I'm sure he doesn't want to join his buddy in the big fish bowl in the sky.   ;D

 

[catfishmike]

i really need to be more concise some times i tend to oversimplify things and and make assumptions.when i said that i moved on and was talking about using a pre existing culture to hold that level of filtration.the extra space was for the original fish so when you switch them over,that way the bacteria would grow with a slightly larger load if you didn't have the time for a full fishless cycle.and all this assuming that you will overstock your tank.so i hope i make more sense.any time i sound incoherient let me know.my gripe with bowls is that they usualy are a 1/4 gal. or less and none are filtered cause it's to small to filter.1 and 2 gal. with ugf and some up-keep is the best or an eclipse explorer,perferably an explorer because they  keep a more constant temp.

 

[dcbluemeanie]

Am I reading right?  I have a 10 gallon (hopefully) nearing the end of the cycle.  Can I put the betta in that I have been waiting on?  He's in a 1 gallon "tank" with an air pump.  He is eventually going in the 10 gallon once the ammonia level is lower.  Should I just put him in now?
Just to be safe, I won't move him until I hear what you all think, since I've been doing this 2 weeks and you all have been involved obviously longer  *thumbsupsmiley*