Lighting Questions

[IDunnoWhy]

More Questions

OK, I'm currently bidding on a Aqua C skimmer on eBay, and am going to pick-up some egg crate from Home Depot tomorrow.

Questions:

1. Is it required to have the skimmer running while the tank is cycling? (no fish)

2. The LFS I visited today had both "cured & un-cured" LR, is there a benefit either way?

3. Do you ammonia cycle with the LR or just let the LR cycle by itself?

4. I want a sand substrate...Is marine "live sand" required? Could I just use "play sand" if it's rinsed good? Speaking of which how the heck do you rinse sand? all the "strainers" I have the holes are way too large (dumb question, I just know it )

5. When adding LR & Sand, which goes in first? It would seem easier to add sand then pile LR on top, but I swear I've read of people doing it the other way.

There will be more questions to follow

 

[TRe]

1 - no its not required
2 - cured is what you want ... this means its already been given time for all the dieoff to completly die off so u have no spikes
3 - u lost me on that one
4 - u can use dry sand (in a matter of time it will actually become "live") to rinse it simply put it in a old pillowcase and run water through it
5 - u can do it both ways.. the reason people put the rock first is because it makes the rocks more stable especially if u have fish that like to burrow

 

[IDunnoWhy]

Sorry TRe, didn't mean to loose ya'

My question about the ammonia cycling was simple.....When you cycle a FW tank you can use ammonia in place of actual fish waste. In the SW world, does LR provide the necessary waste to "cycle" the tank, or does it still require the use of ammonia (fishless cycling).

Thanks for the info!!

Another question.... "Cured" LR should be kept submersed during transit from the LFS to home correct?

 

[1979camaro]

I agree with roughly half of what TRe has told you. Here is my two cents:

1. The more dissolved organics you remove from the water during the cycle the more stuff will survive. I would run the skimmer. Is it necessary? No.

2. Cured rock will, as TRe said, have experienced most of its die off and so you will likely see no ammonia spike if it truly is cured. Some LFS' sell "cured" rock that really isn't very cured and you will get that spike. Don't plan on getting cured rock and throwing in fish within the next couple days.

There are advantages to un-cured rock as well. It is generally cheaper and will have more diversity of life at the time you purchase it. How much of that will survive is another question. You will, however, have to cure it which can be inconvenient.

As long as you aren't hours away from the LFS you do not need to keep the cured LR submerged; simply wrap the rock in wet newspaper to keep it moist.

3. You do not need to add ammonia to the tank. The LR is your biological filtration and it is pretty much established during the curing process. If you cure it yourself, the die-off will add ammonia to the water. If you buy cured rock, there will be no "cycle" per se.

4. Play Sand is generally a bad choice as it often leads to algae blooms because it is silica based. You are much better purchasing a calcium based substrate (aragonite, coral sand etc.) as it will buffer pH and not create algae problems. It is pretty much a waste of money to buy "live sand" (especially the bagged stuff). As TRe said, your sand will become "live" with time and you can easily speed up the process by getting a cup of sand from a fellow reefer to seed yours.

5. The rock needs to go in first. Digging organisms (fish, starfish, snails, crabs, etc.) will often topple rock which is placed on top of sand. If you place the rock on the glass you will not have this unfortunate experience. You may also want to consider placing eggcrate/light diffuser underneath the rock to disperse the weight evenly so you do not have points of pressure on the glass.

- Kevin

 

[Lorna]

oh and one more thing to add.....

Don't rinse your sand. By rinsing the sand you are removing the fine particulate that helps when creating a true deep sand bed, if that is what you are aiming for. A deep sand bed should consist of sugar sand and be approximately 4-6 inches deep.....shallower for finer grain (oolite)....deeper for coarser grain sand (reef). Don't be put off by the dust storm unrinsed sand will cause. As your tank cycles the floating particulate will become weighted down with the beneficial bacteria and settle down......good luck!

 

[TRe]

i would stay away from play sand aswell for the above mentioned reasons.. i was lucky enough to come across dry aragonite
the reason i said you can add rock both ways is because ive done it both ways without problems but iv heard stories about the rock toppling over wich is why i put the rock in first on my current setup
as far as a dsb i prefer it only in the fuge because 6" of sand in the display IMO looks rediculous

When you cycle a FW tank you can use ammonia in place of actual fish waste. In the SW world, does LR provide the necessary waste to "cycle" the tank

yes that is correct

 

[IDunnoWhy]

Thanks Guys! *thumbsups

OK, so I'll steer clear of the play sand.

Lorna, I know I want a sand substrate, however 4-6" in a 20g (tall) tank seems like too much, and as TRe said, I could do it in the fuge, but with such a small tank, I'll likely not be running one. Do you think I could get away with maybe 2-3" instead?

Kevin, How does one go about "curing" there own rock? Do you simply place it in the tank, and wait for the die off? Or is there some "rocket science" to doing it the right way?

Sorry for all the "repeat" questions, I'm sure you SW veterans have answered them 100's of times over the years......I'll try to make mine at least insightful

 

[Joe Fish]

If you want to run a DSB then you need a min of 4" in the display. The little area in a fuge is good, but not the greatest.

If you are starting with an empty tank you can cycle in there. Put the water in the tank and add the rocks. If you have a skimmer put that on. Water temp should be 79-80 before adding the rock. Make sure you have enough flow and wait. You wouldn't need to fill the tank completely, just enough to cover the rocks. I would change 50% of the water once or twice a week. Oh, don't forget to add the salt. Depending on the condition of the rock it should be done in 3 to 4 weeks. Test params once a week.

 

[1979camaro]

On the sandbed, you do not need to run a DSB with 4-6" of sand as Lorna suggested. You can also run a fine layer of sand (< 1in) and have no problem at all. The long term viability and positive aspects of DSBs are still widely debated within the reef community. You just need to choose one or the other...don't go somewhere in between.

As far as curing your own rock, Joe Fish pretty much said it. Put it in, run the skimmer, do water changes. Over time you will see ammonia and nitrites drop to zero which indicates that the rock is cured.

 

[Joe Fish]

Before I decided to do a DSB I did read a lot on it. Everyone seemed to say something different, as if common in this hobbie. I decided to use one also because I wanted to keep sand sifting fish and or a jawfish.

 

[Lorna]

yes there are pros and cons on the deep sand bed and as Camaro suggested go one way or the other. A true deep sand bed must be deep enough to provide the proper space necessary to perform the denitrification. If using a shallow bed then you will want to ensure that you keep it clean by vacuming it regularily and stirring it up. A deep sand bed should have the top layer of sand about an inch or so stirred regularily also and many that utilize a dsb have sand burrowing fish and animals that stir it up for them such as cucumbers and brittle stars, burrowing sand turning snails etc. A lot of these sand dwellers eat the fauna that resides in the deep sand bed and some of these can't survive in a shallow bed as they would quickly decimate the fauna....ie. don't put a sand sifting star into a tank without a large enough footprint and deep enough sand bed to provide these ravaging eater enough food.......also alot of sand sifting gobies eat what is in the sand also and need a deep bed to provide food. Here is a good article on the benefits

DeepSandBeds

 

[IDunnoWhy]

Score......Maybe

One of my sales reps came into the shop today, and we got to talking about fish Long story short, he's an ex-fishkeeper SW to be exact.....

He has offered me some Fiji LR that was in his tanks for years, he said I could have as much as I need....for free the problem is he took his tanks down about a year ago, and it has been sitting "dry" in buckets since then. Is that a problem, is it even usable after all this time?

He also has three 5 gallon buckets full of Aragonite, that he said I could have for free too

If any of this stuff is useable, it would certainly save me some $'s

What do you guys think?

 

[1979camaro]

The items are usable.

The rock will, of course, no longer be live, but it would be good base rock to use...but if I recall this is a 20g tank so you probably won't have much use for base rock.

The aragonite will work as well...I would recommend washing it in a water:bleach solution of 10:1 just to get any nasty stuff killed. You should then rinse it with some dechlor and water for a long time.

 

[IDunnoWhy]

The rock will, of course, no longer be live, but it would be good base rock to use...but if I recall this is a 20g tank so you probably won't have much use for base rock.

The aragonite will work as well...I would recommend washing it in a water:bleach solution of 10:1 just to get any nasty stuff killed. You should then rinse it with some dechlor and water for a long time.

Ahh I see, so here's the next "goofy" question, lets say for example, I get 10lbs of this old "NOT LR" and then put in 10lbs of fresh LR, does the new stuff "re-seed" the old? or is it dead period?

Thanks for the tip on the Aragonite, It's like $19 a bag at the LFS so I figured heck, free is free right? No one ever said SW was a "budget minded" hobby, but why spend $ you don't have too

 

[1979camaro]

It will seed over time but it can take a long time (not a problem unless you mind waiting).

 

[IDunnoWhy]

Thanks again!

No, I have no problem waiting, I believe I read somewhere "nothing good happens fast in a SW tank"

I figure even if i use 50-75% new LR the tank is still going to be "fish free" for at least a couple months, while I get my brain wrapped around this whole thing and the tank settles down (apparently much longer if I wait for my "dead rock" to come around *twirlysmi ), Plus it gives me the extra time to research the various species of fish/inverts & corals compatible with a "small reef" tank.

Even though this is just a small lil' 20g I want to try and do it right the first time. When I finally have everything purchased/aquired I will start a new thread with my build up!

Thanks everyone for the help/patience

 

[TRe]

the dry rock will definitly work just make sure the live stuff you get to seed it is some good quality stuff to seed with coraline ect..

 

[IDunnoWhy]

Progress.....Baby Steps

OK, so I'm moving forward here, I will be picking up the "dead rock" Saturday (approx. 10lbs) I'm then going down to the LFS afterwards, I talked with one of the employees there today and they have some well matured LR for $5 a pound, I'll probably grab 10-15lbs. I generally don't believe the "employees" regarding the quality of their product, but this guy seemed very well versed on SW systems, plus he's a Mod on M.A.R.S. (Madison Area Reef Society).

But I trust you guys more *thumbsups So here's a few more questions.

In addition to the LR for the main display, I've been tossing around the idea of grabbing some LR "rubble" to toss into my HOB filter, to be used as a small fuge, I'm currently "crafting" a small CF fixture to mount above it. Any thoughts on this concept? It's a Marineland Penguin 330 so it's a fairly sizable unit, I'd say it probably holds 1/2-3/4 of a gallon. Currently I have a 15 watt CF bulb (screw in type) for it, will that be enough light for just some LR rubble?

I read somewhere that there is a certain type of algae that one keeps in the sump/fuge to battle algae in the main display, is that true? if so what type? Is there anything else I should consider tossing in there?

Now for the powerhead questions...I have a Marineland 1140 (300 gph) and a Marineland 660 (170 gph) adequate water movement? (take into consideration the HOB fuge as well) Should they be pointed directly at the rock pile, or upward toward the surface, one toward the back and one facing front etc.?

Now the REALLY stupid question....On the main tank I have the fixture shown earlier in this thread, with both lamps, exactly what is the purpose for each type of light? I assume the CF "white" lamp is considered "daylight" right? What is the purpose of the actinic lamp? is it on at the same time as the other or on by itself? Is there ever a time when there should be no light?

Basically what I'm looking for is a rough lighting schedule to follow, what lamps at what times and for what durations.

Thanks Again!!

 

[TRe]

generally u can just have both lights on the same schedule..... about 8 hrs is fine if u want a little more thats fine too.... some people have the actinics come one an hr before and stay on an hr later to simulate dawn and dusk ..... the algae yur talking about is macro algae... there are differant type personally i have cheato in my fuge... as far as turning your HOB filter into a fuge many people do that

 

[IDunnoWhy]

generally u can just have both lights on the same schedule..... about 8 hrs is fine if u want a little more thats fine too.... some people have the actinics come one an hr before and stay on an hr later to simulate dawn and dusk ..... the algae yur talking about is macro algae... there are differant type personally i have cheato in my fuge... as far as turning your HOB filter into a fuge many people do that

Thanks TRe!

Do you think a lil' 15watt CF over the fuge will be adequate lighting for some LR "rubble"? Or will I require more wattage?