new species

[brian1973]

Either way, discus do not hold the same health issues or deformations that hybrids usually hold.

IMO those health issues are not the norm in hybrids..the deformities found in the common hobby hybrids are there because the breeders wanted them there. Again many hybrids exist in the wild without known health issues
and without physical abnormalities.. another example of common NA hybrids that occur naturally.. Saugeyes (walleye/sauger hybrid)

I havent included Wiper (striped bass X white bass) because I am not sure if they are a man made hybrid or if they are a natural cross that man has engineered to be sterile in some populations.

LOL..I knew the discus thing would get a comment from you..

Do the cichlids in the original post occur together naturally?

 

[Orion]

There is absolutely no need for hybrids. None. Especially within the cichlid family - there are literally HUNDREDS of pure, naturally-occurring species that are absolutely STUNNING. Why on earth do we need to create some dumb hybrid when there are so many natural and pure species to choose from?

I can't see any way to argue that.

On to other stuff...
People (not just you Brian ) want to compare the crossbreeding of Dogs and Discus, but that's apples to oranges. Dogs were selectively bred out over hundreds of years to emphasize particular traits. All the different types was no accident. It was very carefully planned, and because of this the types are strong and healthy. Discus are the same to an extent. People who knew what they were doing cross bred to bring out the traits they wanted.

As has already been said, most Malawi, SA and other cichlid hybrids are from from being planned. It just happened, so no one knows what will happen to them 10 generations from now, and then when other people who don't know what they are getting think it's a pure strain and the hybridization starts again. It's the same difference between a real dog breeder, and a puppy mill or someone who just won't take the time to get the dang dog fixed and it just keeps shooting out pups.

I too have bought the unknowing hybrid being sold as pure. $70 later I was ticked off to say the least.

Regardless of the view or opinion, I just can't see how anyone could argue with SK's statement I quoted. There is without a doubt a cichlid for everyone no matter what type of fish strikes your fancy, and nearly one for every tank size and budget.

Now if you want to play Dr. Frankenstein and hybridize weird fish in your tanks, no body can stop you. But for the love of all that is good in the hobby, keep them out of shops and out of the trade.

 

[Rayneuki]

I just sorta brought it up because I've never really understood the hooplah. Thanks to C-man and Sinister, I do now. I've read up on it, aparently Blood Parrots actualy do have health issues. More often than not they cannot eat properly (deformed mouth) and have swim bladder issues.

I understand (from more research) that the hybridization has been related to 'painting' or dyeing fish. That actualy sort-of makes sense in the term of Blood parrots. Aparently flowerhorns are made because they create 'luck'. But there are plenty of natural cichlids that look nearly the same as a flowerhorn (the hump, red coloring, and spots on its side). People also aparently abuse these fish to cause them to be more 'round'.

So I understand why most Cichlid keepers hate this practice. It promotes other horrible practices...

 

[brian1973]

I can't see any way to argue that.

On to other stuff...
People (not just you Brian ) want to compare the crossbreeding of Dogs and Discus, but that's apples to oranges. Dogs were selectively bred out over hundreds of years to emphasize particular traits. All the different types was no accident. It was very carefully planned, and because of this the types are strong and healthy. Discus are the same to an extent. People who knew what they were doing cross bred to bring out the traits they wanted.

As has already been said, most Malawi, SA and other cichlid hybrids are from from being planned. It just happened, so no one knows what will happen to them 10 generations from now, and then when other people who don't know what they are getting think it's a pure strain and the hybridization starts again. It's the same difference between a real dog breeder, and a puppy mill or someone who just won't take the time to get the dang dog fixed and it just keeps shooting out pups.

I too have bought the unknowing hybrid being sold as pure. $70 later I was ticked off to say the least.

Regardless of the view or opinion, I just can't see how anyone could argue with SK's statement I quoted. There is without a doubt a cichlid for everyone no matter what type of fish strikes your fancy, and nearly one for every tank size and budget.

Now if you want to play Dr. Frankenstein and hybridize weird fish in your tanks, no body can stop you. But for the love of all that is good in the hobby, keep them out of shops and out of the trade.

I dont disagree that hybrids should be avoided, my only arguement is that IMO cichlids keepers act like all hybrids are bad and they dont occur naturally, I say that is BS, mother nature produces hybrids I gave a few of the more common North American examples, if a fish of the same genus is in the same body of water then yes they may have produced hybrids naturally at one point.. Also about 6 months or so ago there was an article in a Fish magazine (not sure which one, I have only bought and read a few) that stated that approximately 99% of Platys currently available on the market are hybrids between original platy's and swordtails..so by buying a platy you would possibly be supporting hybrids as well.

As for Discus...I honestly do not know much about them but IF they are 2 different species ,as I have found on more than one site, that have been bred together they are hybrids, once species A mates with species B then it is hybrid,That is not cross breeding, Thats not my opinion, thats science. Now I found numerous sites stating that the Cobalt blue are hybrids but IMO they are calling color morphs hybrids as i can find no species info on them.

Now the statement that their are plenty of naturally occuring species is true..but again some natural hybrids are beautiful fish as well, I am going to start a thread specifically for this topic just to get some input/ friendly debate/ opinions without further hijacking this thread.


I do agree they should not be sold, but telling him their a freak of nature and they should be culled...I think for a guy wanting to "name" his fish is a bit extreme. Anyway , I understand your point of view and agree to a point. I completely understand why some are opposed to blood parrots and flower horns..i personally like the parrots and I dont like flower horns, I have had parrots, and purchased them knowing the controversy, and would again.

P.S. I don't compare cross breeding (line breeding) dogs to hybrid fish, I know the difference..

 

[exhumed07]

wow I never knew this ould turn into such a heated debate lol. well I just want to keep the fish in my tank. I have no plans on distributing them to anyone. I figured they might be something a bit rare in my area and just something kinda neat for my tank.

and sinister I do take some offense to the comment that people that have hybrids are irresponsible. and I have to agree with brian1973 that natural hibridization does happen and it's just that. it's natural. I could sit here and spout off all the hybrids I've caught in the mississippi river and surrounding areas. I have no issues with hybrids.

this tank is an african only tank and thats all I look at. if the fish is an african and looks good I'll buy it, hybrid, pure, what ever. I just see no reason to kill the fish because it's parents are different. this may be extreame but it's almost like saying kill that little boy because his mom is white but dad is black. I know that sounds obsurd but y kill something because of it's parents.

Now don't think of me as an animal rights type of person casue I hunt and fish but I see no point in killing for no reason.

 

[SinisterKisses]

Take offense to it or not, but IMO raising and distributing hybrids is irresponsible fish keeping, and does a lot of damage to the hobby.

 

[Chris_A]

I just want to second the above... There are enough problems with the Rift Lakes in general let alone allowing hybrid genetics to possibly contaminate the gene pool. While there are some naturaly occuring hybrids in North America, there is no way of knowing if these specific species would do that in Africa. Does one even know if they come from the same part of the lake? Personally, I wouldn't consider it killing for no reason. The reason is if the original breeder had been responsible they would have culled it a long time ago.

Really I think it's one of the saddest aspects to the hobby, a total disregard for maintaining "true" or "proper" or "pure" (call it what you will) blood lines. Selective breeding has destroyed enough captive populations (guppies are a great example), why further that with hybrids?

Just my opinion though... I well aware I'm not going to change anyones mind...

Chris