Seriously Ill Male Betta With Glued Up Fins!

[OrangeCones]

my other fighting fish that looks sick now had his tank cycled for three days, which we were told was good enough for a small tank.

Sky Diamond - I'm not sure who you are getting advice from, but the size tank has little to nothing to do with the amount of time to cycle a tank. 'Cycle' means completing the nitrogen cycle, establishing the necessary bacteria to convert fish waste (ammonia) to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. It can take 6 or more weeks to do this. You can 'jump start' the process by getting the bacteria from a healthy/established/'cycled' tank, or by plants as I mentioned here or on another of your threads. To use the 'Silent Cycle' method requires a LOT of plants growing well, better than 'stock lighting', etc. and not a few Anubias species.

I tested the water a few hours ago and gave him a 85% water change.

Ammonia was 0.25 -- so that might not be helping.
Nitrite was 0
Nitrate was 0
PH 7.2 or 7.6 it was hard to tell with the blue. He's used to acidic water where he comes from so that might not be helping either.

Any level of ammonia or nitrite can be deadly, and will cause damage to the gills if the fish does survive it. I agree that water changes are a great necessity in a non-cycled tank, but great care must be taken to not cause sudden shifts in pH or temperature. Dripping the water as Thyra mentions is a great way to make sure there are no sudden changes.

One of my own tanks in my prior home had a pH of 8.2, as my local water was very hard. When some fish I had ordered from Asia came in, I tested their pH and found it to be 7.3. That is a HUGE difference. I put them with the water from their shipping bag into a water-change bucket and dripped the tank's water into the bucket. It took 2 hours to double the volume of the water. I dumped half of that out and did it again. So at the end of 4 hours, they were in 25% their original water and 75% tank water. Temps now matched exactly, and I released them into the tank. No one died or got sick (36 fish).

 

[Sky Diamond]

Originally Posted by Thyra:
If you do not have any nitrate your tank is not cycled. How do you normally cycle your tanks? Also if you think there is a big difference in the pH you can use the "drip method" of acclimating a fish to a new tank as OC does.

I've always been told nitrate, should always remain at 0 as with nitrite and ammonia - now it's getting confusing lol. All my tanks have been like that - nitrate at 0, no matter how long they've been going.

What is the drip method and how do you set it up? I've seen it before in videos and such on youtube, but never been told about it or seen it in real life. I'm currently using Indian Amen leaves in the tank to keep the PH right. It seems to work well for about a week then the leaf needs replacing as the PH goes up.

Originally Posted by Thyra:
Also just exactly what do you mean by the statement "his tank cycled for three days, which we were told was good enough for a small tank."?? I do not understand that concept.

I let his tank sit for three days to cycle and I was told that setting it up a few days before getting and putting the fish in would be good enough for a small tank such as his. It's a 9 litre tank with just a heater, apple snail and water plant in it.

I just tried the filter the tank came with but he was fighting against the current so I took it out. I just put some Stress Zyme and Betta Fix in there just in case there was anything going disease wise.

Originally Posted by OrangeCones:
Sky Diamond - I'm not sure who you are getting advice from, but the size tank has little to nothing to do with the amount of time to cycle a tank. 'Cycle' means completing the nitrogen cycle, establishing the necessary bacteria to convert fish waste (ammonia) to nitrite, and nitrite to nitrate. It can take 6 or more weeks to do this. You can 'jump start' the process by getting the bacteria from a healthy/established/'cycled' tank, or by plants as I mentioned here or on another of your threads. To use the 'Silent Cycle' method requires a LOT of plants growing well, better than 'stock lighting', etc. and not a few Anubias species.

All information in cycling, I've gotten from pet shops or aquariums. They all say it'll only take a week to cycle - which is typical of them to say something wrong from my experiences around here. . . I've been using a product called Stress Zyme+ by API, and it says it has live friendly bacteria in it to get the tank going better. Shouldn't it have put up my nitrate if it was working?

I never thought to test the water my fish came in. The lady I bought them from, said the Bettas like water around 6.5 and they had the leaves in the bag with him when he came. I just let him adjust to the water by sitting them in the bag in the tank for about 30 minutes and let him out slowly, letting all their water into the tank with him from the bag. I do this to all my fish I buy.

This one has been fighting fit since the day I got him, up until today - surprising considering he came in the mail. I'm wondering if she used the net on the fish who just died, and then on mine and now the disease it had, is now taking affect on him.

He was going up to the top of the tank taking in air a bit today, something I haven't noticed before, and now understand its from the ammonia. He's always seemed to be breathing slightly heavy since I got him, but after putting the Betta Fix in about half an hour ago now, and letting the filter run for five minutes just to let it mix the water with the meds, he doesn't seem to be breathing heavily at all.

Thankfully this fish isn't like the other one that just died, with sitting at the bottom or top of the tank constantly or any sign of the fins being clamped up. But it still worries me as like the other one, the night before he got the glued up fins and started sitting at the bottom/top of the tank, he wouldn't fight either, though he was a little more lively. There was no sign of him even getting sick.

This guy just sits in the middle of the tank for a few and then starts swimming like there's nothing wrong and then sits in the middle of the tank again. Least he's eating okay.

I'm trying to get the water up to at least 24C. When they came the water in their bags were cold so I've been slowly trying to get the water up. New heaters we bought were supposed to keep the water at 26C and they only keep it around 21 to 23.5C Currently another heater I have is set on 26 and it lets the water drop to 22.5 before it comes on. . . I'm still waiting to see what the temp gets to.

 

[Thyra]

Most fish will acclimate to almost any pH if you do it slowly. It has been found best to leave the pH of your regular water alone and not try to change it because you will wind up "chasing" the numbers and that is very stressful for fish. It is possible to cycle a tank with a fish in it, but it needs to be done very carefully. You need to have only one or two fish and preferably a liquid test kit and you need to religiously check the water daily for ammonia and nitrite and change enough water on a daily basis if necessary to keep them at zero. After about 2 weeks you can start checking for the nitrate. When you start to show some nitrate and zero ammonia and nitrite, you can slack off a bit on the water changes, but keep testing until you are sure its stable. Then after that what I would do is test the water weekly for all three and vacuum and do a 25% water change if everything is okay. If you show any ammonia or nitrite, you will want to change water daily until its back to zero. You want the nitrate at about 20ppm.

 

[OrangeCones]

Those are drastic temperature changes for any fish, especially on a daily basis. I would suggest investing in better equipment.

Betta can take in oxygen through their labyrinth organ, but they still need to use their gills. Ammonia and nitrite will permanent damage the gill organs.

 

[OrangeCones]

I've always been told nitrate, should always remain at 0 as with nitrite and ammonia - now it's getting confusing lol. All my tanks have been like that - nitrate at 0, no matter how long they've been going.

How are you testing? What kit type/manufacturer? If you have never seen a measurement of nitrate, then no tank has ever cycled.

What is the drip method and how do you set it up?

You can buy a kit that does it, or just use airline tubing. See this link: Shrimp Fanatic: Easy DIY Drip Acclimation

I'm currently using Indian Amen leaves in the tank to keep the PH right. It seems to work well for about a week then the leaf needs replacing as the PH goes up.

A stable pH is far better than any specific number. As Thyra mentioned, they will adjust to whatever is 'normal' and its stressful to have it changing.

This one has been fighting fit since the day I got him

Does this mean you are taunting him into fighting his image in a mirror? It's your fish and you can do what you want, but not all agree it's a healthy thing to do, but definately not that he's sick. Why add additional stress to a fish that is not acting 100% normal and in an uncycled tank?

 

[Sky Diamond]

Most fish will acclimate to almost any pH if you do it slowly. It has been found best to leave the pH of your regular water alone and not try to change it because you will wind up "chasing" the numbers and that is very stressful for fish. It is possible to cycle a tank with a fish in it, but it needs to be done very carefully. You need to have only one or two fish and preferably a liquid test kit and you need to religiously check the water daily for ammonia and nitrite and change enough water on a daily basis if necessary to keep them at zero. After about 2 weeks you can start checking for the nitrate. When you start to show some nitrate and zero ammonia and nitrite, you can slack off a bit on the water changes, but keep testing until you are sure its stable. Then after that what I would do is test the water weekly for all three and vacuum and do a 25% water change if everything is okay. If you show any ammonia or nitrite, you will want to change water daily until its back to zero. You want the nitrate at about 20ppm.

Okay, I'll look into that thanks. What would happen if I just cleaned out the tank with about 50% to 80% water change once a week? That's what I always used to do. I did have a reading of 5 of nitrate once in one tank but the ammonia of 8 and the next day it was down to 0.25. What happened there?

Those are drastic temperature changes for any fish, especially on a daily basis. I would suggest investing in better equipment.

Betta can take in oxygen through their labyrinth organ, but they still need to use their gills. Ammonia and nitrite will permanent damage the gill organs.

Well sadly, where I am in Australia, I only had these two heaters to choose from. The one I'm using now is Aqua One. The other is Marina. The Aqua One heater was $23 and the Marina $30. I don't buy cheap or faulty stuff for my fish. The Aqua One is a 25w meant for a 25 litre tank and this one is only 9 litres. The Marina is 10w meant for a 10 litre tank, so I don't know why they are playing this way. It is very cold here right now, so I'm not sure whether or not that has to do with anything.

How are you testing? What kit type/manufacturer? If you have never seen a measurement of nitrate, then no tank has ever cycled.

I'm using liquid test tubes. I'm not exactly sure of the brand as it's very old, but I think it was Fish Doctors or something. It wasn't a cheap test kit though.

You can buy a kit that does it, or just use airline tubing. See this link: Shrimp Fanatic: Easy DIY Drip Acclimation

Great! I'm going to town today to get the meds he needs and some air stones to help the water move around the tank while I'm treating him. I'll also get that.

Does this mean you are taunting him into fighting his image in a mirror? It's your fish and you can do what you want, but not all agree it's a healthy thing to do, but definately not that he's sick. Why add additional stress to a fish that is not acting 100% normal and in an uncycled tank?

From the second day I had him and up until yesterday, yes, as like I said I was advised to for ten minutes a day buy the seller. I don't even think about showing him the mirror or anything they will want to fight with while sit or after travelling. I also meant by fighting fit, as he was healthy and very active without fighting. He's always swimming around happily and trying to get my attention while I'm sitting on my chair writing. But last night he was just sitting there for a bit and then swimming slowly. I noticed the difference in him yesterday because he was acting so different. Today he's moving a little but mainly sitting at the top.

 

[OrangeCones]

You keep mentioning that nitrate was 5, but other posts said you've never had anything but zero for nitrate. Very confusing.

Test kits do expire, and if yours is 'old' it may not be giving correct readings. Also, the test for nitrate can be tricky as you normally have to shake the bottles for it a LOT for them to work properly.

I've used a 25watt heater to heat 5 gallons (approx 25litres), when it was far below freezing outside, all winter long. It kept it at 27.

 

[Sky Diamond]

You keep mentioning that nitrate was 5, but other posts said you've never had anything but zero for nitrate. Very confusing.

I've only had it the once in the tank with the the Gouramis, Angel Fish, etc. It's hard keeping track of it, years ago and now.

Test kits do expire, and if yours is 'old' it may not be giving correct readings. Also, the test for nitrate can be tricky as you normally have to shake the bottles for it a LOT for them to work properly.

Sounds like I need a new one then. Think this one is going on 4 to 6 years old. I normally only shake it for 30 seconds.

I've used a 25watt heater to heat 5 gallons (approx 25litres), when it was far below freezing outside, all winter long. It kept it at 27.

Well it mustn't be an Aqua One heater. . . I warmed the water up with new fresh water tonight. The tank was 24.5C and the heater was set on 24 as I thought if I left it on 26 it'd heat it up to 26 which would be too much of a difference from 22.5. . . now it's dropped back down to 22.5. I swear my tanks are cursed right now. . .

Well I got to the pet shop today and couldn't get the Tetra Cycline but I did get Aquari Cycline which mentions Tetra Cycline on the label so I'm hoping it'll do the job. Now his fins are glued up to, but at least he's not just sitting around. I added some air to the tank also to mix the water around with the meds a little.

 

[OrangeCones]

I don't think a tank can be 'cursed' but it sounds like equipment is faulty or not set correctly.

"Glued up" fins are not a good sign.

 

[Sky Diamond]

I know it can't be curse but it just feels like I'm having issue after issue with things in the tanks, no matter if it's the water, meds of equipment. I've never had so many issues at the same time. The very weird thing is: I have another Aqua One heater that was used in the Betta's tank that just died and it had the same problem. The heater was set on 26 and the water only got to 24C and the tank was in the kitchen where it's warmer. I've used these heaters a million times over in the past.

Yes I know, but at least he's still trying to move around a bit.