The Times they are a Changin'

Feb 23, 2003
251
0
0
60
Naples Fl.
www.millevolte.com
#1
I received this e-mail last week from the Goby research news group. This hobby may be in for a change. Check out the latest in bio-engineering.

Bioengineered "Glow" Fish

Some of us may of heard about the type of research going on but it looks like these fish are hitting the market (along with bunny rabbits and christmas trees) sooner than we might think.
 

Last edited:

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#3
omg, I could have done without another post on this subject:mad: !

Not anything of your fault spike..its just that this topic makes me...furiously enraged, shall we say.

People need to not screw around with the basic elements of life...appreciate nature for what it is.

I could go on about this for hours and hours upon end, but I shall not, for fear of an annurism (or however it is that you spell it)
 

Last edited:
Feb 23, 2003
251
0
0
60
Naples Fl.
www.millevolte.com
#4
I tend to look at this controversial subject in a different light. I am first of all amazed and man's current powers to manipulate nature.

If certain steps are adhered to, I think this type of fish might bring others with relaxation and enjoyment, which is not such a bad thing. I myself will still prefer to keep "natural" fish.

First thing that concerns me is the health of the fish. The second is the possible enviornmental imact these critters could have if released into the general public and eventually the wild.

Too bad these researches are not concentrating their efforts on something more benificial like a fish that is resitant to ich and other parasites.

I am sorry if I rehashed a topic already discussed on the this forum.

-Spike
 

Last edited:

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#5
I don't remember where a similar post was, but I'm pretty sure it was on this board... I didn't mean that you shouldn't have made another post...I'm sorry if it came across that way.:)


How 'bout, all ethical and personal beliefs aside, they stop friggin with making fish glow in the dark for our amusement and greed (- animals are not "created" to give or bring joy and amusement and relaxation to people! They are not OURS to USE. How would you (anyone in general) feel if we got the shaft and monkeys turned out intellectually superior to us and injected stuff into us and used as as expendable objects?!) and use the technology and incredible amounts of money to save creatures that we have put in danger of EXTINCTION! We won't be able to alter fish if they are no longer on this earth. Once they are gone people, they are gone forever and for good. Because of our sheer, utter, total, and incomprehensible (to me) stupidity!
 

Feb 23, 2003
251
0
0
60
Naples Fl.
www.millevolte.com
#6
You bring up some very valid points!

My thinking is the market for these fish is certain. I would hope that at least the proper research is done to meet the criteria mentioned previously.

I don't condone the efforts of the researchers on this and would hope they would focus their efforts on more benificial studies. Biongineering is here to stay whether I approve or not.
 

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#7
Ahh, see. That is where greed runs rampant. Just because there is a market, should not mean that it is okay. There is a market for everything illegal or immoral, otherwise it wouldn't be illegal or immoral, get it?

The thing is, what is accomplished from this? NOTHING! Save human enjoyment and awe. WELL, go outside, find a natural animal, look at it, and enjoy it! Play video games, do something...you don't need enjoyment from creating freaks of nonnature.
 

colesea

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,612
0
0
NY USA
#11
I think the fish are pretty cool. What better way to put to use research duds that would otherwise be euthanized as completely useless in a project. With the economy being what it is today, grant money is probably all dried up. So why not fund research by selling the critters that wash out. Can't do heart research on a fish that you can't tell where the heart is glowing from. Can't do DNA research in a fish in which all the genes glow and you can't tell separate the allele you're studing from the other alleles on the chromosome.

Has anybody found the paper they said was published on the subject? I'm sure if you read the actual study they would give you the survival rate of these fish, as well as their frequency. I would assume that there is nothing physiologically wrong with these fish provided that they have to be research quality in order to produce valid results in a study. They probably aren't even aware that they are glowing, and just going around their fishy business as usual.

The only way this "tampering" can cause environmental problems is if some fool moron released them into the environment. But look at it this way, at least they'll be easier to net and round up than snakeheads (hee hee). They mentioned a sterilization procedure before sale. I myself am not exactly sure how this would be done except perhaps adding a hormone to the tank water. Gotta check that out.

And if you noticed, the article said it required a black light for these critters to glow. Scorpions glow green beneath a black light, and nobody complains. When the blacklight is off, they are probably just normal looking rice fish.
~~Colesea
 

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#12
well, my problem is not htat they glow... I could give a flying rhinocerous' left n*t that it gloes. HOWEVER, unlike a scorpion, as you mentioned, that glows under a black light, these fish do NOT do this naturally. They have been tampered with. It is not natural, it is not normal. It is playing "I'm selfish and can't appreciate nature the way it is, so to assuage my morbid curiousity about how cool an altered fish that glows is, and to provide my greedy being with enjoyment and pride in what we, as superior humans, can do to nature's marvels, I am changing this fish's being because it isn't pretty enough to me." I don't understand why people can't get this: animals are not ours to USE. The very thought is, to me, proposterous! You want to see something that glows under a black light? Go volunteer yourself (as you are mentally capable of doing, unlike the fish and other creatures that are forced into something they don't understand) for research. After all, how cool would it be to have glow in the dark finger nails?

Don't get me wrong, I am not against some of the weird things research (although I don't consider glow in the dark fish "research") is doing these days. I just took my honors seminar on "Health Ethics and AIDs" and my hour and a half final presentation was dedicated to the genetic modification and alterations that are occuring in the name of "science". Go ahead, grow a liver in a petri dish if you feel the need, that will surely help people.. Although I am not for it, I see more relevance in growing organs in pigs to tranplant to humans (they lack the components that cause rejection in transplants). That helps someone (albeit at the expense of the pig). Fish that glow do not seem to help any one except for their ability to produce money. (big surprise)

You mention how the only way that these could tamper with the environment is if a “fool moron” released them into the wild. WELL, that happens all the time! There are several posts on this topic alone. Look at what happens with the snakeheads (as you humorously mention, I don’t think this is funny ) and the oscars that were released into a pond (fish that the people thought surely would never survive). Those oscars destroyed the ecosystem.


I still don’t see the point that you need a black light to see the results. What does it matter? The alteration is still there. You just need help to see it (which seems pointless in and off itself). Why would anyone want one of these fish anyway? Its beauty is fake, a façade, a lie. Why not go out an get some neon tetras or some pearl gouramis who are truly beautiful. A beauty that can be appreciated. Why do we feel the need to create “better”, new fish, when we can’t keep the ones that we have currently from extinction. How about we worry about that first, before we go making new fish?!

“You can’t do heart research on a fish if you can’t tell where the heart is glowing from.” You can’t? Microscopes? Dissection? Do you see people walking around with glowing hearts? curiously, “no”, but I’d bet there are some primates out there with them. Why? Because we feel we are better than them, i.e. ours to use, because they do not speak our language..and their screams of pain, loneliness, etc etc etc mean “nothing” to us. If you feel the need to have this type of research, volunteer yourself ! – you have the mental capacity to do it…and you have the choice. No one is forcing you into a cage or small tank to inject you with foreign objects. And I bet you are eternally greatfull for that.

Also, I don’t think it matters how long the fish last. It’s not right either way. They have still been messed with. The alteration is still there.

I imagine you like the “Painted Glass Fish”. I think that is also cruel. If you want to see bands of flourescent color, inject yourself.

I also doubt the fact that all of the fish that are used to make glowing critters would all, otherwise, be destined for euthanization.

As for need for funding, how about instead of pouring millions of dollars into trying to captive breed certain animals, and all of the other things that money goes to , in order to help keep endangered species on the face of the earth…we put a little more money into it now, to FIX the problem. In the long run we would save money…one lump sum, rather than spending millions each year simply to maintain their decreased status of existence.


If the fish don’t know they are glowing, great, because that is what is best. That aside, it is still wrong. There is nothing wrong with nature…it is beautiful the..way…it …is. It took billions of years for living beings to evolve to the way they are now..who are we to screw with that because “it looks cool”?!?!?!?


I need to go do something else now before I explode. (I had much more written but my computer froze and I lost it)
 

Feb 23, 2003
251
0
0
60
Naples Fl.
www.millevolte.com
#13
I need to go do something else now before I explode. (I had much more written but my computer froze and I lost it)
Don't get too worked up. Many share your same opinion on the subject. We "use" animals for our enjoyment all the time, especially in this hobby. This is not to say that this is there only intended purpose. Man needs animals to maintain its survival. Animals would do quite well without us. The purpose of this particular "jellyfish gene" splicing is open for scrutiny.
 

lizwinz

Large Fish
Oct 22, 2002
400
0
0
48
Racine, WI
#14
leopardess-a very wise person said not too long ago..."SIMMA DOWN NA!";)

i respect your feelings on the subject and even agree with you...but cole brought up some valid points (without personally attacking you) you dont have to agree but that dosent mean shes wrong either

lets all play nice...after all, no matter how right we all think we are, we keep fish that should be living in the wild...some could rightly say this is wrong...some also keep goldfish, bettas, discus, guppys etc that have been selectivly bred to have features that we find attactive...there are very good arguments as to why that is also wrong...so its all in your way of thinking

i dont agree with creating fish that glow, so i wont support it...at the end of the day thats all we can really do because the sad fact is that the people who think this is "cool" outnumber people like us

keep smiling:D

--liz:)
 

Leopardess

Superstar Fish
#15
But I am worked up J although that was actually in reference to this stupid computer, which now freezes ALL the time since the modem was replaced – another story altogether!

I am sorry if it seemed as though I were attacking colesea personally. I honestly didn’t’ mean it that way. When I said “you” I meant it in the general sense…so please kindly replace all “you”’s with “one”’s. I was not attacking colesea, just the arguments.

While some may consider fish keeping wrong, I think it is entirely different. We try our best to recreate their natural environment (the source of our headaches…sigh) without altering them in any way. We try our best to keep things as natural as possible, unlike the glowing fish thing.

So, I will SIMMA DOWN NA! J I’m glad someone got something out of that.


while the fact that i disagree does not mean she is wrong, I still can't see the point in some of her points. (point point point ;))...like the fact htat you need a black light to see it. Well, so what? It's still there...just cuz you need a special light seems to have no relevance on it being right or wrong...

Ideally, yes, we wouldn't keep fish, or dogs or cats, or build houses or cities that infringe on animal's land. However, that, nowadays, is not feasible. I think a line has been crossed however, when we screw with the genetic makeup of a creature for asthetic purposes.


as far as selective breeding, yes ideally that wouldn't happen. but breeding the fish does not interfere with their genetic make up, their very being. It happens naturally, though some fish probably wouldn't naturally mate, it could happen.

seriously, I am the farthest thing from a hippy (all one needs to see for proof is my massive makeup collection and 34, yes, 34, pairs of skirts, BUT i think the world would be a better place if we lived in straw houses and ate vegetables and walked everywhere :( but that won't happen now will it?! :)
 

Riss

Medium Fish
Oct 22, 2002
93
0
0
Brisbane, Australia
#16
Im sorry Leopardess.....but I didn't even bother to read past paragraph two of your "opinion".

Yes you think its wrong yadda yadda yadda, but thats all you had to state. End of story. There's probably thousands of other "experiments" going on, there's no point in getting so worked up over them.

So take a chill pill.

Just my two cents.
 

SoulFish

Superstar Fish
Oct 22, 2002
1,668
0
0
38
Florida
www.rainbowaquatics.com
#17
I am strongly against this, for one i dont think we should be doing anything like this in the first place but those fish must hate it, imagine having no lids and your entire body glowing bright all night, try to sleep in that, fish get messed up from leaving the light on straight for a few days, I dont think any good can come of this
 

jaws2

Large Fish
Feb 19, 2003
625
0
0
massachusetts
Visit site
#18
i agree wit soulfish why destroy natre?? most people think we shouldnt keep fish nevermind bio energenereed glowfish!! also i will never buy these fish if these fish are going to be like common than we would have to boycott them
 

Jawz

Large Fish
Mar 9, 2003
684
0
0
37
ontario, canada
Visit site
#19
overall good ideas ive read made are:

dont mess with nature
improve immune systems of current fish

Its all a big fad, like the yo-yo, game boys, it will fade out. I dont see tru aquarists leaping for one of these fish. They are aiming them at the young kids who go "oh look wow hes cool" Just liek the kids that see "wow its a shark" have no clue its a catfish and that they need a 100 gallon tank to keep it properly. Bioengineering is contrevisal at times but it is a field in which i may progress to work in the future. Many many benifits are derived from it, and as stated in that article this was jsut like an accident, and he is choosing to exploit it for the money, credit and media appeal. I would never buy one of those fish, instead maybe invest in locating new species, or improving current ones making them stronger, which may overall help in there appearance, a healthy fish is a colourful fish.BUt also disease resistance is gradually being developed naturally, as after generation of generation they are becoming stronger, look at Discus, some people keep them in alkaline waters easily and even breed. Everything is slowly evolving...
 

madhippoz

Large Fish
Jan 14, 2003
347
0
0
48
Calgary, Alberta
Visit site
#20
Read the entire article carefully. They originally put the genes in to make the hearts glow so they could more easily observe the development of the organ in the fish. Their are other ways, but this was an improvement, a quick, visible, easy way to view the organ development. The breeding so that all cells took on the glowing gene happened by accident, it was not intentional. Lets be clear here, the research is not being done to grow commercial glow in the dark fish. Now does it seem ethical to make some money off this mishap, well that varies on opinion. Also the article also states that the researcher was sterilizing the fish so they could not transmit the gene to wild populations if released. He said he had successfully sterilized 90% of the fish.

I do not personally like or support the dye injection of fish, or of designer pets persay. I appreciate the natural state of animals rather than a modified one. However, my biggest concern would be the wasted research. Research that could be more effectively used for better purposes. But again, that is not the case of what happened here. Like it or not, this research is necessary. Where do you think most modern medicinal practices and cures were derived from? This research can improve peoples lives, and animals lives as well in the long run. I don't support the commercial explotation of some of this research, but to write the research itself off as unnatural and wrong seems uninformed, and imprudent to me.

For example, take GM modified foods. Strains of grain and corn that grow better, or produce better, hardier yields than conventional "natural" strains. This type of research is helping people in poor nations to become more self sufficient, to get their own food production running again. This is the type of effect "messing with nature" can produce when done properly and responsibily. I would ask that people not forget this fact.